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CRMcNeill
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 Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I like.. nicely rounded.. though why a min damage/to hit bonus? |
Mostly a holdover from combining Lightsaber Combat with Combat Sense, plus the idea that I wanted the ability to provide at least a minimal bonus if dice pools got spread too thin, like with MAPs.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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While we're on the subject, I changed up my modified Danger Sense in a couple little ways:
1) New Modifiers: +5 if Danger Sense is already in use against another threat. +10 if Danger Sense is already in use against multiple threats
2). New Paragraph in Description: Danger Sense does not merely detect active attacks; it also warns the adept if they are about to make an action that will place them in immediate danger, such as entering an area filled with toxic gases, eating or drinking something poisonous, or exposing themselves to harmful radiation. For example, if an adept was about to open a door that was rigged to detonate an explosive device, the moment the adept placed his hand on the door knob, he would get to make a Sense Danger reaction roll to detect the threat.
This additional facet reflects multiple instances in the canon where an adept was about to perform a relatively innocuous act, like locking the S-foils on their X-Wings into attack position, when they suddenly got a warning via Danger Sense. The new modifiers reflect the ability of a Jedi to be surprised and overwhelmed by multiple threats, as seen both during the Clone Wars (Order 66) and in the New Republic Era (Luke vs. the Jedi Trap at the Cavrilhu Pirate asteroid base in Specter of the Past).
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, lets get the original question rolling again..
The idea is to make RAW Force Skills into Force Abilities, and Force Powers to Force Skills. Force Abilities and Skills will work the same way as normal Abilities and Skills. This will allow Jedis to focus on separate skills and also make each Jedi different from eachother.
Please note that I havent done the number crunching yet. I want to calculate different RAW Character generations and compare to the new system. The idea is to have the general CP cost about the same (also at char gen).
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Force Abilities
Each RAW force skill is now a Force Ability; Control, Sense, Alter.
RAW Force Powers are now Force Skills. These work just like ordinary skills and start at the Force Ability level (ie, if you have 3D in the Force Ability Control and add 1 Skill die to Control Pain you have a skill level of 4D.
Issues:
CP Sink: How do you avoid having all the different Force Skills drain all CPs. The goal is to have developing Force Skills about as CP-heavy as gaining Force Powers in the RAW. This means that you should get some Skill Dice from raising the Force Abilities. See below.
Starting Force Abilities: In the RAW you put 1 Ability die in a Force Skill and then add skill dice. How should this system work? Should only 1 Ability die be allowed to be spent, meaning that starting characters would have 1D in each Force ability at best? If you are allowed to spend more, how many? Is this even possible, given that other abilities will be at lowerst possible. One idea is to allow characters to spend two skill dice to get 1 additional dice in a Force Ability they have already spent an Ability die in.
Raising Force Abilities: Even though they are abilities, they shouldnt be as expensive as normal abilities to raise. Perhaps x2 with a teacher and x4 otherwise.
Starting Force Skills (ie former Powers): The idea is not to increase the CP cost to advance Jedis. As there are now many more skills to raise than in the RAW, should you get 'free' skill dice for just Force Skills depending on the dice you put into Force Abilities? This would work in a similar way to how in the RAW you get 'free' force powers when you raise the Force Skills. For each 1 pip you put into a Force Ability you get either a Force Skill (at the Force Ability level) or 1 Force Skill die to put into a Force Skill under that Force Ability.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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That would take a lot of work. You'd have to basically build a new system from the ground up, calculating CP expenditures the whole way to see if they match up, plus you'd have to account for all the various ways in which the Force of the canon & official material is different from the Force of the RPG (insofar as skills and abilities and such).
It sounds a bit too complicated for me, but I'm eager to see what you come up with. IMO, the current system bears enough similarity to canon Force use that its workable; I just think there are too many power out there reflecting specific facets that could be better applied to a more general skill.
One thing that I considered was to have the abilities themselves subdivided. I want to make Force Sensitive an Attribute (or its equivalent) and have Control, Sense and Alter as the three skills underneath. The various C/S/A powers would be abilities or techniques, but would be more general in scope, almost like a category. In each category, specific abilities would be broken down into Facets or Aspects, each with a specific effect.
For instance, if Affect Mind were changed from an ability to more of a general umbrella-type power, you could have specific effects under it for specific purposes, like Empathic Projection to allow you to manipulate others' emotions, Suggestion to implant post-hypnotic suggestions ala Mind Trick, Confusion to confuse and distract, etc. The cost for purchasing a facet would be lower, and you could learn them through practical experience (at greater cost). Under this system, as new power uses are displayed in the canon, it would be easy to come up with a quick rule for a specific facet of a more general power without changing the general rules of the power itself.
Thoughts?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I like.. nicely rounded.. though why a min damage/to hit bonus? |
Mostly a holdover from combining Lightsaber Combat with Combat Sense, plus the idea that I wanted the ability to provide at least a minimal bonus if dice pools got spread too thin, like with MAPs. |
I feel that MAPS Should reduce damage gained from force powers.. that is one of the reasons you do all you can to give enemy jedi a lot to worry about (MAPS).. so you weaken them.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I feel that MAPS Should reduce damage gained from force powers.. that is one of the reasons you do all you can to give enemy jedi a lot to worry about (MAPS).. so you weaken them. |
Last night, I finally remembered the main reason I put the minimum bonus in. It wasn't MAPS; it was because, since the bonus was dependent on the adept's actual combat training, there would be some skills where he had no training at all, such as if he had no dice in firearms when firing a slugthrower. My theory was that, even if he had never fired such a weapon, the Force would still provide at least some insight and advantages when using it, hence a minimum bonus of +2D.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | That would take a lot of work. You'd have to basically build a new system from the ground up, calculating CP expenditures the whole way to see if they match up, plus you'd have to account for all the various ways in which the Force of the canon & official material is different from the Force of the RPG (insofar as skills and abilities and such).
It sounds a bit too complicated for me, but I'm eager to see what you come up with. IMO, the current system bears enough similarity to canon Force use that its workable; I just think there are too many power out there reflecting specific facets that could be better applied to a more general skill.
One thing that I considered was to have the abilities themselves subdivided. I want to make Force Sensitive an Attribute (or its equivalent) and have Control, Sense and Alter as the three skills underneath. The various C/S/A powers would be abilities or techniques, but would be more general in scope, almost like a category. In each category, specific abilities would be broken down into Facets or Aspects, each with a specific effect.
For instance, if Affect Mind were changed from an ability to more of a general umbrella-type power, you could have specific effects under it for specific purposes, like Empathic Projection to allow you to manipulate others' emotions, Suggestion to implant post-hypnotic suggestions ala Mind Trick, Confusion to confuse and distract, etc. The cost for purchasing a facet would be lower, and you could learn them through practical experience (at greater cost). Under this system, as new power uses are displayed in the canon, it would be easy to come up with a quick rule for a specific facet of a more general power without changing the general rules of the power itself.
Thoughts? |
Ok, CP costs do not have to be exactly the same, just in the same ballpark so to speak. Its more of a general idea that it shouldnt cost a lot more just because Force Powers are now Force Skills. Ill do a beginner character and an moderately advanced under the RAW to use as a kind of benchmark and take it from there.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | I just think there are too many power out there reflecting specific facets that could be better applied to a more general skill.
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If you look at the start of this thread, and also the first quote in my post above regarding these ideas, Im thinking of incorporating several RAW powers into a fewier skills (ie Resist Pain, Detoxify, Accel Healing into Force Body. Sense Life, Enhance/Shift Senses into Force Sense for example). This is to reduce the amount of powers to keep track of if you have or not. The RAW sometimes feel more like D&D spells than how I feel the Force works.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | If you look at the start of this thread, and also the first quote in my post above regarding these ideas, Im thinking of incorporating several RAW powers into a fewier skills (ie Resist Pain, Detoxify, Accel Healing into Force Body. Sense Life, Enhance/Shift Senses into Force Sense for example). This is to reduce the amount of powers to keep track of if you have or not. The RAW sometimes feel more like D&D spells than how I feel the Force works. |
Maybe what you could do is get rid of CSA system altogether and replace it with broad-spectrum skills. Control Body would be a good one for all the different aspects of Control. Then you could have Telepathy for all the various mental powers, Telekinesis for all the TK stuff, and so on. Break all the various Force abilities down into maybe a dozen or so different general skills, all based on a single Force Sensitive Attribute. From there, all the various new powers that come up in the canon / EU would be subsets of those basic skills, and you could learn them as techniques, sort of like the way Force Powers are earned now.
In a pinch, D&D has fancy sounding names for all their magic and psychic categories, so the names could be variations on that.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | If you look at the start of this thread, and also the first quote in my post above regarding these ideas, Im thinking of incorporating several RAW powers into a fewier skills (ie Resist Pain, Detoxify, Accel Healing into Force Body. Sense Life, Enhance/Shift Senses into Force Sense for example). This is to reduce the amount of powers to keep track of if you have or not. The RAW sometimes feel more like D&D spells than how I feel the Force works. |
Maybe what you could do is get rid of CSA system altogether and replace it with broad-spectrum skills. Control Body would be a good one for all the different aspects of Control. Then you could have Telepathy for all the various mental powers, Telekinesis for all the TK stuff, and so on. Break all the various Force abilities down into maybe a dozen or so different general skills, all based on a single Force Sensitive Attribute. From there, all the various new powers that come up in the canon / EU would be subsets of those basic skills, and you could learn them as techniques, sort of like the way Force Powers are earned now.
In a pinch, D&D has fancy sounding names for all their magic and psychic categories, so the names could be variations on that. |
But I kind of like that you could be better in general at for example Alter Skills in general and some in specific. In general i like the CSA system I just want to make it more intuitive and simple. The goal here is to have perhaps around 5-6 Force Skills under each Force Ability (CSA) which incorporates all the RAW powers.
The main problem is what to do with the Force Powers that use several Force Skills (under RAW), as I want to have one activation roll and one skill code. How do you handle Affect Mind? Perhaps one could make it an Alter based Force Skill, but with some prerequisites when it comes to C and S.
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I feel that MAPS Should reduce damage gained from force powers.. that is one of the reasons you do all you can to give enemy jedi a lot to worry about (MAPS).. so you weaken them. |
Last night, I finally remembered the main reason I put the minimum bonus in. It wasn't MAPS; it was because, since the bonus was dependent on the adept's actual combat training, there would be some skills where he had no training at all, such as if he had no dice in firearms when firing a slugthrower. My theory was that, even if he had never fired such a weapon, the Force would still provide at least some insight and advantages when using it, hence a minimum bonus of +2D. |
That seems a pretty high bonus when you consider that non force users have to get 6 people combining fire to reach the same 2d...Especially for someone untrained in that area. 2D for a trained area i might see. 1d at most for untrained is what i would allow.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | The main problem is what to do with the Force Powers that use several Force Skills (under RAW), as I want to have one activation roll and one skill code. How do you handle Affect Mind? Perhaps one could make it an Alter based Force Skill, but with some prerequisites when it comes to C and S. |
The route I'm taking is to leave the basic system unchanged (other than making Force Sensitive an Attribute) and then consolidate as much of the powers as I can by combining powers with similar effects under a single heading.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That seems a pretty high bonus when you consider that non force users have to get 6 people combining fire to reach the same 2d...Especially for someone untrained in that area. 2D for a trained area i might see. 1d at most for untrained is what i would allow. |
<shrug> To each, their own. I just figured that, if Combat Sense was going to give the character a flat +2D bonus, incorporating that into this power wasn't too far fetched, especially since I'm putting limiters on its use (in that it can only be used for personal combat).
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:38 am Post subject: |
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IIRC combat sense only gives +1d, and it is affected by MAPS..
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | IIRC combat sense only gives +1d, and it is affected by MAPS.. |
It gives +2D, but it is affected by MAPS. Ultimately, the +2D minimum bonus was a personal choice.
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