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ZzaphodD
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 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I think part of the problem lies in 2E7s reliance of powers for everything. Rather than an Danger Sense power, I think Jedi should be able to use SENSE in place of PER to detect/notice things.
The James Bond RPG used to have a Sixth Sense skill that you could use to notice things that you really had not reason to (i.e. like noticing that the guy walking down the street has a grenade in his backpack).
Being able to use SENSE like that would give Jedi the acute senses they are supposed to have. |
Sense vs Sneak or a set target number (if it isnt an ambush but instead just something unexpected). If the Ambusher is a force user then Control might be used instead of Sneak as the target number to detect the danger.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I think part of the problem lies in 2E7s reliance of powers for everything. Rather than an Danger Sense power, I think Jedi should be able to use SENSE in place of PER to detect/notice things.
The James Bond RPG used to have a Sixth Sense skill that you could use to notice things that you really had not reason to (i.e. like noticing that the guy walking down the street has a grenade in his backpack).
Being able to use SENSE like that would give Jedi the acute senses they are supposed to have. |
I can't agree with that. Jedi as is are powerhouses, giving them a dangersense like ability consistently (and for free) makes them even more potent.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I think part of the problem lies in 2E's reliance of powers for everything. Rather than an Danger Sense power, I think Jedi should be able to use SENSE in place of PER to detect/notice things.
The James Bond RPG used to have a Sixth Sense skill that you could use to notice things that you really had not reason to (i.e. like noticing that the guy walking down the street has a grenade in his backpack).
Being able to use SENSE like that would give Jedi the acute senses they are supposed to have. |
We have considered that and occassionally use that. There are two sets of problems from my perspective, one obvious and one not so obvious.
The obvious problems are it gives the Jedi a big advantage which gets worse as they advance, obviates the need for Jedi characters to put dice to Perception, and makes high Perception characters in the party redundant at best and second string at worst, and effecitvely makes it almost impossible for a non-Jedi to act against a skilled Jedi.
The nonobvious problem is it would eliminate the humor and roleplaying situations from playing a low perception Jedi. I have a Jedi with a 2D Knowledge and a sub 3D Perception and it is very entertaining to have him miss out on some of the subtle actions around him. 
While I agree there is ample precedent in the movies for Jedi having superhuman senses (and even more precedent in the Clone Wars Cartoons); from a game balance perspective allowing Jedi to routinely substitute Sense for Perception seems, to me, to be seriously unbalancing. As I mentioned, we occassionally allow Sense to substitute, but it is entirely at the GM's descretion, not at the Player's option. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
I disagree it should be intuitive.. otherwise all those jedi in ROTS would have seen those backstab attacks coming.. |
Well, all didnt perish from a single neck-shot. Also, the idea is that Danger Sense is not 'automatic' but instead a Sense roll vs either Sneak or a set target number (which can be modified). I guess the totally unexpected attack from ones own troops would make that a large modifier... Also, I read somewhere another explanation why the Jedis didnt 'feel' these attacks coming were that there was no prior feelings of hostility coming from the clone troopers. Even when executing the attacks the clones were just coldly following orders making the upcoming attacks hard to pick up by the Jedis..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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I can't agree with that. Jedi as is are powerhouses, giving them a dangersense like ability consistently (and for free) makes them even more potent.[/quote]
Yes,but it also fits the source material.
I think the key to making it work would not be to use SENSE as a substitute for PER but to complement it. Not necessarily using the same difficulty.
For instance, seeing a training remote is a Very Easy PER task. Senssing a training remote while you have the blast shield down would be more difficult than using PER but works where PER isn7t an option. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
We have considered that and occassionally use that. There are two sets of problems from my perspective, one obvious and one not so obvious.
The obvious problems are it gives the Jedi a big advantage which gets worse as they advance, obviates the need for Jedi characters to put dice to Perception, and makes high Perception characters in the party redundant at best and second string at worst, and effecitvely makes it almost impossible for a non-Jedi to act against a skilled Jedi. |
Yup, and it is the reason why I haven7t done something like that yet. If your not careful SENSE could end up replacing PER. It is a case where game balace is fighting with on screen info.
I don7t have an easy fit for it, but like iajutus strikes with lightsabers, I would like to work it into the game somehow.
| Bren wrote: |
The nonobvious problem is it would eliminate the humor and roleplaying situations from playing a low perception Jedi. I have a Jedi with a 2D Knowledge and a sub 3D Perception and it is very entertaining to have him miss out on some of the subtle actions around him. |
I7m not so sure if that is really a problem with the idea. One thing that the RPG doesn7t really trackin intelligence. Jar Jar could be trained as a Jedi but would probably still be a clumsy idiot.
| Bren wrote: |
While I agree there is ample precedent in the movies for Jedi having superhuman senses (and even more precedent in the Clone Wars Cartoons); from a game balance perspective allowing Jedi to routinely substitute Sense for Perception seems, to me, to be seriously unbalancing. As I mentioned, we occassionally allow Sense to substitute, but it is entirely at the GM's descretion, not at the Player's option. |
I agree. In D6 Jedi can easily outclass the other PCs and make them redundant. We are stuck between be faithful to the soruce, and keeping things fun for the rest of the players.I wish I had a quick fix for it too.
One reason why I7m looking at Sixth Sense in the JB RG is that it worked in conjuction with PER. Maybe a Danger Sense skill could work. Everbody could take it, bu Jedi could use Sense instead. There is a lot of "I got a bad feeling about this" in the films, and not just from the Jedi. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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If it is still up to them to ask for it to get rolled, i could see it..
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If it is still up to them to ask for it to get rolled, i could see it.. |
I was thinking the opposite. Like the JB Sixth Sense skill the GM rolls it and the players have no control over the abiltity. Either they sense something is wrong or they don't.
In fact, the way the BOnd RPG used to use Hero Points for wsuch rolls would port over well to D6, too. In Bond, if you wanted to spend points on "hidden" rolls, you had to inform the GM and send the points in advance. It made it somewhat chanchey, since a player could end up throwing points away on a easy thing that they would have picked up on anyway.
I'm thinking that the degree of info given would be based upon how high the roll was compared to the difficulty. JUst making the roll would mean a vague feeling that something is wrong, while beating the difficulty by a wide margin would yield details.
As a rule of thumb, the difficulty could be twice that of a comperable PER or Search task.
So if it were Difficulty (16) to spot an ambush it could be HEroic (32 for a Jedi to SENSE an ambush. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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I think the best way to do this is to have two levels of awareness.
Just doubling the difficulty levels I think is way to harsh, this would mean that you had to be almost a Jedi Master to succeed at any but the easiest ambushes. However, the Danger Sense as is is very powerful, so perhaps we could work towards both ends. Make it intuitive but also make it uncertain and fickle.
Make it intuitive (ie, you dont have to 'activate' it beforehand).
When 'danger' pops up roll the Jedis current Sense dice (ie including Maps even if Danger Sense in itself isnt an action). If the Jedi is very busy doing lots of other stuff then his chance of detecting things is smaller.
The Difficulty of generally detecting 'danger' is the same as the RAW difficulty of activating the power, ie Moderate. This gives no detailed information beyond the awareness of present danger. Just like the RAW an attackers Control might modify this. If an attackers 'Sneak' roll beats the Jedis Sense roll the attacker also goes undetected.
However, if said Sense manages a Very Difficult roll the power works just as in the RAW. The only difference is that the Jedi still fail to see the attacker if he beats his Sense roll by 10 or more with a sneak.
Intuitive but uncertain and less information gained on average.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think i am going to mod it for my games thys..
Danger sense
Sense skill
Mod diff base
Used by the GM
When the jedi posessing this power is attacked with out his knowledge, the gm rolls a sense check for him. if he gets a moderate roll + the inverse of relationship (easier to detect an attack from an enemy than a friend), he is warned that he has an attack incoming and can get a reaction roll. This does NOT override his ability to normally spot ambushes.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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The way ZzaphodD describes it is pretty much how we play it. I need to think about garhkal's mechanics, but it sounds promising and I like the idea that it might be harder to detect danger from those you are close to. That would be one way to account for the effectiveness of Order 66.
Wow, it sounds like ZzaphodD, garhkal, and I may all be in agreement. That may be as rare as a conjunction of 7+ planets.  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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DANGER, DANGER, DANGER....
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I think i am going to mod it for my games thys..
Danger sense
Sense skill
Mod diff base
Used by the GM
When the jedi posessing this power is attacked with out his knowledge, the gm rolls a sense check for him. if he gets a moderate roll + the inverse of relationship (easier to detect an attack from an enemy than a friend), he is warned that he has an attack incoming and can get a reaction roll. This does NOT override his ability to normally spot ambushes. |
That looks pretty good,.I assume you meant 30-realtionship modfier for the "inverse" and not an actual inverse (1 divided by realtiohip modfier).
One suggestion. Change the difficulty to Heroic +10 (40) minus the relationship modfier. Its functionally the same, I just added the 30 to the base difficulty rather than to (30-relationship modfier).. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 4:22 am Post subject: |
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I meant it as 15 + the relation chart in reverse. So a total stranger of a different species adds +0 while a good friend of the same species is +30.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I meant it as 15 + the relation chart in reverse. So a total stranger of a different species adds +0 while a good friend of the same species is +30. |
That is what I thought, except for the flat 15 for moderate.
So 45-relationship would do the same thing with only one calculation. |
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