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atgxtg
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 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: Space Combat Movement |
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I've been thinking of treating spaceship's SPACE rating as the all-outspeed, rather than the move per action speed. FOr example a ship with SPACE 8 would move 2 when crusing, 4 at high speed, a 8 all-out.
FOr fractional speeds, round off to the nearest, so a TIE fighter would move at 3/5/8/10.
My reasons are:
1) It helps to keep the starfighters on the battlemat.
2) It will make movment easier to handle and quiker (no more counting off 20 or 30 spaces on the battlemat).
3) It will help to combat the "move faster than you can see" problem with sensors, since I don7t plan of reducing thier range.
I will reduce weapon ranges to keep the on par with the movement rates.
So laser cannons will go from 1-3/12/25 to 1/3/6, and blaster cannons will go from 1-5/10/17 to 1/3/4.
How does this look? Does anyone see any horrible problems with it that I missed that could come back to haunt me during play? |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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What will you do with ships with space 3 and under?
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg - alternately you could get a similar effect by just treating each square on the battlemat as 4 units across and quadrupling the sensor ranges.
The problem, as jmanski pointed out, is that will be that you will lose granularity. Your weapons example has very little difference between medium and long range (only 1 square) whereas in the original the difference is 7 units or one full cruising speed move for a Y-Wing.
Also cautious moves (1/2 move) for slower ships will be fractions of a single unit e.g. for a speed 3 transport 1/2 of 1/4 of 3 units or 0.375 units.
We tend not to play ship actions or vehicle combat in a war game style of combat. So generally we tend not to use a battlemat for space or speeder combat. The vehicles just end up moving off the board. We tend to just use relative position for small numbers of units (works best with one-on-one). For larger numbers of ships or vehicles we use a blank piece of paper to track positions without worrying about exact ranges and moves. This worked well with the large fleet battle that had 7-8 battlegroups and hundreds of ships.
This is mostly because I have a number of players and my co-GM who are not tactically minded and thus they wouldn't enjoy tracking that level of detail. But it does have the virtue of allowing ship action to resolve a lot faster since we are not tied to counting moves. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, I assumed that weapons too would keep their RAW ranges.
Similar to the 'fly faster than you can see' problem, we have a 'instant point blank' problem with weapons when you easily fly around at 25:ish speeds and above.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | What will you do with ships with space 3 and under? |
Probably round off, so 3 would be 1/2/3
4 =1/2/4
3= 1/2/3
2=.5/1/2
1=.25/.5/1
For fraction movement of less than 1, I would work it to the number of rounds it would take to move 1 unit. SO a ship moving at 0.5 speed would take 2 rounds to move 1 space.
I don7t see this as much of a problem since few ships move slower than 4, and the ones that do will be almost certainly be doing high speed movment during combat.
| Bren wrote: |
atgxtg - alternately you could get a similar effect by just treating each square on the battlemat as 4 units across and quadrupling the sensor ranges. |
I could, but I don't see the advantage to the alternative. It seems to me that it is easier to divide by 4 ahread of time that divide by 4 each time a ship moves or shoots.
| Bren wrote: |
The problem, as jmanski pointed out, is that will be that you will lose granularity. Your weapons example has very little difference between medium and long range (only 1 square) whereas in the original the difference is 7 units or one full cruising speed move for a Y-Wing. |
Yes, some granularity. But not as badly as you think. At 1/4 scale laser ranges would to 1/3/6, so there would be a 3 point difference between medium and long range. So that'S a 3 unit difference, not a 1 unit difference.
Blaster Cannons will have it a bit tougher with 1/3/4.
But with the reduced movment ratesI don7t think the smaller difference in ranges will hurt play. 7 and 12 point differences seem greater, but starfighter are moving much faster in the normal rules.
Currently, what seems to happen is that ships get detected and then close to weapon range. Depening on initative rolls, ships have manged to get within point blank range before being spotted.
Also, with 2 R&E RAW, a fighter can cause problems by going all-out. Unless a ship is very slow, it has to do an all-out too to keep up. Since in 2R&E moving all out is a"full" action, it becomes a really cheap way to defend against TIE fighters. Ifthey keep up without they can't shoot. THe truncated movement and ranged helps to mitigate that a little (but noi enough, IMO)
| Bren wrote: |
Also cautious moves (1/2 move) for slower ships will be fractions of a single unit e.g. for a speed 3 transport 1/2 of 1/4 of 3 units or 0.375 units. |
Yup. But such movment doesn't come up much in combat. Usually everybody in gunning it, and only slow down to avoid flying into big obstacles like planets.
| ZzaphodD wrote: |
Similar to the 'fly faster than you can see' problem, we have a 'instant point blank' problem with weapons when you easily fly around at 25:ish speeds and above. |
True, but at oleast that problem is "canon". That TIE fighter that zips past the Milinium Falcon in Star Wars (EP IV), goes from point blank to "out of range" in about 1 round.
It's not possible with 2R&E RAW, but would be possible with the old -1D per Move method of 2E.
And "instant pont blank" is about right for gun combat for fighters, too. Even WWII era fighters could move right out of gun range in 2 game turns. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | True, but at oleast that problem is "canon". That TIE fighter that zips past the Milinium Falcon in Star Wars (EP IV), goes from point blank to "out of range" in about 1 round.
It's not possible with 2R&E RAW, but would be possible with the old -1D per Move method of 2E.
And "instant pont blank" is about right for gun combat for fighters, too. Even WWII era fighters could move right out of gun range in 2 game turns. |
By that reasoning you should keep the space move as is, or also reduce sensor ranges. In the movies the TIE fighters just show up at point blank with no warning.
Also, you cannot reason with how fast/far you could fly in 'real life', because in 'real life' what we do is not divided up into 10 second rounds. We see, react and can start firing within a couple of seconds, which makes that 20 second flight time an eternity, which isnt the case 'in game'. To use that line of reasoning we have to play this game in 1 or 2 second rounds.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: |
By that reasoning you should keep the space move as is, or also reduce sensor ranges. In the movies the TIE fighters just show up at point blank with no warning. |
Almost. The flaw is that the TIEs not only show up at point blank, but are ready for a fight.
Maybe they got better sensors? Or maybe those ISDs can act as AWACS and are telling the TIEs where the PCs are at 80 Space Units?!
| ZzaphodD wrote: |
Also, you cannot reason with how fast/far you could fly in 'real life', because in 'real life' what we do is not divided up into 10 second rounds. We see, react and can start firing within a couple of seconds, which makes that 20 second flight time an eternity, which isnt the case 'in game'. To use that line of reasoning we have to play this game in 1 or 2 second rounds. |
We have to use that reasoning to some extent, since that is is model for starship combat. The difficulty is with "turn based" movment., with each side alterating actions.
What would help would be to allow people to interrupt movment in order to use sensors or fire weapons. That way gunners could star shooting at the fighters when they gen into range instead of waiting until it is thier turn to act.
I think I'll add such a rule. Say allow it but apply a -1D peanlty for rushing the shot. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: |
We have to use that reasoning to some extent, since that is is model for starship combat. The difficulty is with "turn based" movment., with each side alterating actions.
What would help would be to allow people to interrupt movment in order to use sensors or fire weapons. That way gunners could star shooting at the fighters when they gen into range instead of waiting until it is thier turn to act.
I think I'll add such a rule. Say allow it but apply a -1D peanlty for rushing the shot. |
But if you compare a 'real' two second reaction time to two rounds of game time you cant just 'port' weapon ranges. 20 seconds 'real' time is like at least 10 rounds of 'game time' in that sense. Given that you can keep the weapon ranges as RAW and still be able to move to point blank in the same relative time as in your 'real' example above.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg | Quote: | | Yup. But such movment doesn't come up much in combat. Usually everybody in gunning it, and only slow down to avoid flying into big obstacles like planets. |
Hmmm. If I recall if you all out move that is your only action. So you can't shoot, you can't dodge, and you can't actively use your sensors. Also, the difficulty for flying at all out speed can be rather nasty. I'd be tempted to just blast some laser cannon fire in the general path of an incoming/outgoing vessel and let him crack up on the movement failure. If it is a long combat, after 10 minutes or so of all out flight, the pilot needs to start making hull rolls to see if his engine overheats.
Seems reasonable to allow gunners to take opportunity fire on targets that come in range. That seems like a reasonable action. If they are only targeting in one quadrant, I'm not sure I would even add the -1D penalty you suggested. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: |
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For land based movement yes you can do nothing else. In space (or air) with vehicles having multiple stations i can easily see the gunners still getting a chance to shoot.
BUT i will say if all they are doing is going all out, they have NO chance of dodging return fire.
| Quote: | | 1) It helps to keep the starfighters on the battlemat. |
I have never had an issue keeping it on the battle mat. Remember if going all out that is all they do (well the pilots).. Since most ties have speeds that can allow them to go full (which means they CAN shoot) and keep up with their prey, going all out means you will only have a few squares/hexes difference between teh 2 targets AND the one fleeing cannot dodge.
| Quote: | | I will reduce weapon ranges to keep the on par with the movement rates. |
So proton torps/concussion missiles, which are already short range (1/3/7) now become .3/1/2...
| Quote: | | I could, but I don't see the advantage to the alternative. It seems to me that it is easier to divide by 4 ahread of time that divide by 4 each time a ship moves or shoots. |
I think you are going about it the wrong way.
Lets take a combat example. Pc's in the Trusty pickup (yt-1300, space 5), stired up a hornets nest and now have 6 tie fighters on them (space 9 iirc)... SO right there there is only a 4 speed diff. If the pcs double up they are moving at 10, and the ties are still only 1 hex movement diff...
If pcs quad up (flank) they are going 20. This will mean the ties have to now go doule speed to keep up. That make then 18 space.. and only 2 hexes difference..
I see no issue keeping it as is... i have had many years playing both with and without battlemats and have seen no issues here..
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ...and now have 6 tie fighters on them (space 9 iirc)... |
Regular TIEs are space 10. Makes your example work even better.  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:21 am Post subject: |
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I thought they were 9... That makes it even better, as a tie can go at half the PC's speed in a stock light freighter and keep up!
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:48 am Post subject: |
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A 'middle way' here might be that spaceships can at maximum fly twice their Space rating. Half space rating being equal to the RAW 1xSpace.
This removes some problems of dividing low Space ratings by four and rounding up (meaning some end up at the same speed). Of course it will still happen, but it wont affect the game too much. Also, if a ship end up with 5,5 you can keep it in mind. Effectively it moves at 5 but if in a 'drag race' with a ship that has a movement of exactly 5 it will have a slight advantage.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Hmmm. If I recall if you all out move that is your only action. |
Yup. Although I'm leaning against dumping that. Otherwise the Death Star Trench run doesn't work.
Luke: Okay, guys were going in there full throttle!
Biggs: Luke, at that speed, will we be able to fire the proton torpedoes at the exhaust port?
Luke: Oh...yeah..Half Thottle.
OR
Luke: We'll just drop to half speed right before we hit the port. That way the TIE fighters can pick us off one at a time while we7re waiting to get within range
| Bren wrote: |
Also, the difficulty for flying at all out speed can be rather nasty. |
Not really. It depends on the terraqin. If it is just open space then the difficulty is pretty low. Considering that most fighters have at least 2D maneuverability and most pilots have a 4D skill, that means all out flying shouldn7t be much of a challenge, unless you7re doing it through an asterid field or inside a captial ship or death star. [/quote]
| Bren wrote: |
I'd be tempted to just blast some laser cannon fire in the general path of an incoming/outgoing vessel and let him crack up on the movement failure. |
ANd miss. With the way combat works, if the other guy has moved, he will be out of range before you get to shoot. This is where alternative actions doesn7t really work very well. IMO you should be able to get a parting shot off (at a non dodging target) before the foe moves out of range, but hat7s not how it works according to the RAW.
As for the Movement failure. THe guy is probablly rolling 6D or more and will propbably not fail, or if he does fail, he will probably only take a slip or spin penalty to any seubsequent actions in the round (a non penalty as going all out means that there won't be any more actions).
| Bren wrote: |
If it is a long combat, after 10 minutes or so of all out flight, the pilot needs to start making hull rolls to see if his engine overheats. |
I could live with that. Not that it would make much of a differencce. Both sides would have the same problems, so it won7t matter much. And if you got a copilot or astromech, he can probably lay in the coordinates for a hyperspace jump long before ou need to worry about slowing down.
| Bren wrote: |
Seems reasonable to allow gunners to take opportunity fire on targets that come in range. That seems like a reasonable action. If they are only targeting in one quadrant, I'm not sure I would even add the -1D penalty you suggested. |
I think so. I snagged it from the STAR WARRIORS game. In fact, I think there is a lot of good stuff in that game that could and should be ported over to the RPG. Not to the same level of detaf, but some of the ideas. I like the range and move rates, ability to fire during a move, aux power, the way shields are angled, adn the ability to jury rig temporary reapirs during combat. Most of those rules could port over almost exactly as is. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
I have never had an issue keeping it on the battle mat. Remember if going all out that is all they do (well the pilots).. Since most ties have speeds that can allow them to go full (which means they CAN shoot) and keep up with their prey, going all out means you will only have a few squares/hexes difference between teh 2 targets AND the one fleeing cannot dodge. |
Your players must be in really slow ships. Anything that can go SPACE 6 can hit 24 in all-out. A TIE/ln has SPACE 10, and a TIE Interceptor Space 11, so they would need to go all out as well just to keep up, and therefore won7t be able to shoot.
Now, if the TIEs go at high speed (20) they will get a couple of shots off before the targets get out of range. Then the TIES will need to "alternate thier movement to keep on the target.
The faster the PCs ship the better the tactic works. Especially if the PCs are in a ship as fast as the bad guys (I7m running in the Clone Wars era, so the bad guys don't always have a speed edge). Going all out while the copilot lays in the navi coodinates is probably morre relaible that dodging.
| Quote: |
So proton torps/concussion missiles, which are already short range (1/3/7) now become .3/1/2... |
Yup. UNless you go with missles that can fly and track like in SAGA. The SAGA comnversion of the V-19 starfighter can shoot at quite a distance.
| Quote: | | I think you are going about it the wrong way. |
Hold on. Read the post about the alterante method of couring each hex as 4.
| Bren wrote: |
Lets take a combat example. Pc's in the Trusty pickup (yt-1300, space 5), stired up a hornets nest and now have 6 tie fighters on them (space 9 iirc)... SO right there there is only a 4 speed diff. If the pcs double up they are moving at 10, and the ties are still only 1 hex movement diff...
If pcs quad up (flank) they are going 20. This will mean the ties have to now go doule speed to keep up. That make then 18 space.. and only 2 hexes difference..
I see no issue keeping it as is... i have had many years playing both with and without battlemats and have seen no issues here.. |
I have many years playing the game, too. I started playing with 1st edition, so let7s toss that out.
NOw as far as your example goes...
If the TIEs are going 18, then they are slowly droppong behind the YT-1300.
But, what if your PCs are in something a bit faster than a unmodfied YT-1300? If the PCs go all out them the TIEs are in trouble. Especially if the PCs detect the TIEs while they are at some range. What happens is that most opponenbts need to go all out to keep out with a ship that fleeing all out.
Put your PCs in Y-Wings, give them a chance to detect the TIEs at scan or search range, and see what happens if your PCs immediiatly flee. |
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