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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: Force Power skill levels |
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Im thinking of introducing skill levels for Force Powers.
When you read about different characters you often come across information that someone is, for example, talented at reading minds. Another is very powerful with force lightning and similar descriptions.
I dont want to have dice codes attached to Force Powers, as I think this will just mean too much book keeping and also unnessecary details. Instead I was thinking of having four (or is it five) skill levels.
Novice. -1D to skill roll?
Journeyman. As RAW.
Expert. +1D to skill roll / One less MAP to 'keep up'.
Master +2D to skill roll / ???
(Grand Master) Do this level even exist, or is it a myth?
Im thinking about how you should progress in skill level. I dont want it to become to expensive in CPs. Please feel free to add your own ideas.
-Novice: When you normally would get a force power.
-Journeyman: Here I have two ideas. The first is to allow you to progress to Journeyman when you normally would have been able to learn a power (ie, when raising a skill at least one pip). This will mean a slower progression to the 'normal level'. Another is to have free progression from Novice to Journeyman, but only after a specified time (as judged by the GM from use of the power by the player).
-Epert: ?
-Master: ?
To increase the power to Journeyman
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Last edited by ZzaphodD on Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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Your system here is really not clear, can you restate what you intend?
And yeah, "Grand Master" exists, Luke becomes one around 36ABY-ish, following the Dark Nest Crisis. Yoda also held the title.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | Your system here is really not clear, can you restate what you intend?
And yeah, "Grand Master" exists, Luke becomes one around 36ABY-ish, following the Dark Nest Crisis. Yoda also held the title. |
Its under development, thats why its a bit confusing if your looking at it as a finished system.
Basically what I need to come up with (ideas are welcome):
How to handle progression. I dont want the system to become too CP heavy. Basically Journeyman should be reached quite cheap, perhaps just a little more effort than the RAW.
In the RAW you can learn a force power each time you increase a skill with at least one pip. A power requiring three skills 'counts as' three powers. Perhaps its easier to talk about 'power slots'. Each time you increase a skill by at least one pip you gain one 'power slot'. It takes three power slot to learn a power that is based on three skills.
To learn a power to Novice level cost 1 power slot (as the RAW).
To learn a power to Journeyman could either cost 1 more slot, or come automatically after a certain time (to keep the system as close to the RAW cost).
To learn a power to the Expert level should perhaps cost 2-3 power slots.
Master 3-5 (meaning a three skill power takes a total of 9-15 pips increase in skill).
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Grimace
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| Posted: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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So basically what you're saying is that it gets harder to learn Force powers the more knowledgeable in the Force you become? Am I understanding that correctly?
And what sorts of qualifications bump a character from Novice to Journeyman to Expert to Master? |
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tetsuoh
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Joined: 21 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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we did the following in our house rules
Force Power Specializations - A Force user may specialize in only one power of each Control,Sense, or Alter. Should a power fall into more than one skill it uses the specialization available to all associated skills.
Specializing in a Force power can only be done by raising the associated Force skill(s) by two pips and costs double the normal price.
You may only specialize in a Force power if the associated skills are at least 4 Dice or higher.
Specializing in a Force power adds a +2D bonuses to rolls to use the power and the power may be kept up without penalties to further actions. |
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Its under development, thats why its a bit confusing if your looking at it as a finished system. |
No, I was reading it as a vague idea/concept that needed fleshing out... but still had no real idea of what you were trying to get at... it was really disjointed and sparse.
With the added clarification, I think I see what you're trying to get at, and it's really seeming somewhat cumbersome. Tetsuoh's idea kinda seems to work and is expensive enough to dissuade people from taking advantage of it too often and breaking things.
Your system requires a lot of paper work, keeping track of what powers you have at what level and all that jazz... and I don't think it really fits with what we see/read in the source material. Generally there is a power or family of powers that a Jedi might be really good (or really poor) with... and everything else is pretty average, while most Jedi are fairly average (within their relative power level) without an affinity towards a particular power.
With that in mind, it seems like you should leave the core system alone and set up something that reflects the affinity for a power or power family (single power makes more sense mechanics wise). This would also limit the amount of character accounting you need to do. It could simply manifest as a lowering of difficulties by a level for that power or something like that... it doesn't have to grow in power as the Jedi does... I can't think of an example where that happens in the source material (someone is either gifted or not, the gift doesn't magnify in relation to other powers, it just kinda stays generally higher than them, usually to the same degree). I don't think it should come cheap, and, in some ways, I think it should be decided at character creation or after first developing Force Skills, rather than chosen later... especially if its with a power that they already knew. It makes MUCH more sense to show the affinity for the power at its initial inception rather than as a later development.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:40 am Post subject: |
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Other than seeing the Halycon blood line (corran horn etc) having issues with TK but being great at altr mine, i have yet to see any references in the novels to some force user being better at X and worse at Y.
BUT if i had a pc wanting to be something like that, they would
A) have to come up with on heck of a good write up for how their 'family tree' got that way
B) have a good reason for how they got trained in the force (during a rise of the empire time frame only),
and IF i liked it enough, i might give say a +2d bonus to the 'good side' while the bad side got a -2d...
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Grimace wrote: | So basically what you're saying is that it gets harder to learn Force powers the more knowledgeable in the Force you become? Am I understanding that correctly?
And what sorts of qualifications bump a character from Novice to Journeyman to Expert to Master? |
No, its 'harder' to master a force power than to achieve novice level.
Qualifications are mechanically to 'pay' a certain amount of 'power slots' into a power you already have instead of getting a new one. All the normal requirements regarding learing force powers stay the same (teacher if GM requires).
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Its under development, thats why its a bit confusing if your looking at it as a finished system. |
No, I was reading it as a vague idea/concept that needed fleshing out... but still had no real idea of what you were trying to get at... it was really disjointed and sparse.
With the added clarification, I think I see what you're trying to get at, and it's really seeming somewhat cumbersome. Tetsuoh's idea kinda seems to work and is expensive enough to dissuade people from taking advantage of it too often and breaking things.
Your system requires a lot of paper work, keeping track of what powers you have at what level and all that jazz... and I don't think it really fits with what we see/read in the source material. Generally there is a power or family of powers that a Jedi might be really good (or really poor) with... and everything else is pretty average, while most Jedi are fairly average (within their relative power level) without an affinity towards a particular power.
With that in mind, it seems like you should leave the core system alone and set up something that reflects the affinity for a power or power family (single power makes more sense mechanics wise). This would also limit the amount of character accounting you need to do. It could simply manifest as a lowering of difficulties by a level for that power or something like that... it doesn't have to grow in power as the Jedi does... I can't think of an example where that happens in the source material (someone is either gifted or not, the gift doesn't magnify in relation to other powers, it just kinda stays generally higher than them, usually to the same degree). I don't think it should come cheap, and, in some ways, I think it should be decided at character creation or after first developing Force Skills, rather than chosen later... especially if its with a power that they already knew. It makes MUCH more sense to show the affinity for the power at its initial inception rather than as a later development. |
Nah, it doesnt require any signigicant paperwork. Thats why I stayed away from individual skill levels for each power. The only extra book keeping you need to do is to add a letter after your force power on the character sheet. For example Control Pain (J) for Journeyman level.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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SInce you asked for suggestions:
-Don't appy any modfiers to novice skills. Just have them be the default. THay way it will be easier to run them.
-For the higher levels, how about instead of bonus dice, just reduce the difficulty 1 level? THat way it is easy to run, AND the characters don't have to add or subtract more dice. You could also have any power than drops to difficulty 0 or less not count for MAPs.
For example, Lightsaber Combat requires a Moderate Control roll and a Easy Sense roll. SOmeone with it at Jouneyman levle would only need to make an Easy Control roll and a Very Easy Sense roll. An Expert would only need to make a Very Easy Control roll and would only suffer 1 MAP, since the Sense roll would be 9. A Master of Lightsaber Combat would reduce both rolls to 0 difficulty and suffer no MAPs for the power.
-For cost, I suggest the cost be mutliplier per Force Skill used for the power. So it cost more (is harder) to master a power than uses two or three skills athan just one. I'd also suggest doubling the CP cost for each level of ability, so that you don7t have PCs with low force skills mastering powers instead of working on thier Force skills. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | SInce you asked for suggestions:
-Don't appy any modfiers to novice skills. Just have them be the default. THay way it will be easier to run them.
-For the higher levels, how about instead of bonus dice, just reduce the difficulty 1 level? THat way it is easy to run, AND the characters don't have to add or subtract more dice. You could also have any power than drops to difficulty 0 or less not count for MAPs.
For example, Lightsaber Combat requires a Moderate Control roll and a Easy Sense roll. SOmeone with it at Jouneyman levle would only need to make an Easy Control roll and a Very Easy Sense roll. An Expert would only need to make a Very Easy Control roll and would only suffer 1 MAP, since the Sense roll would be 9. A Master of Lightsaber Combat would reduce both rolls to 0 difficulty and suffer no MAPs for the power.
-For cost, I suggest the cost be mutliplier per Force Skill used for the power. So it cost more (is harder) to master a power than uses two or three skills athan just one. I'd also suggest doubling the CP cost for each level of ability, so that you don7t have PCs with low force skills mastering powers instead of working on thier Force skills. |
-I was thinking of that. Then perhaps apply a small bonus to the Journeyman level (not a Dice bonus). Its stilll under consideration.
-One reason I used a dice bonus instead of dropping a diff. level is because lowering a difficulty level is more powerful than adding a die (or two for Master). However, I like the idea of reducing MAPs for easy Powers (I already have a separate rule for reducing MAPs for keeping powers up, so this is just a redo of that system). I think Ill lower the difficulties instead after all.
-Yeah, the 'cost' (either in CPs, or 'free' power slots from raising skills) basically work the same as in the RAW. Its the multipliers for more advanced levels that I havent decided on. Of course it should cost more to become a master of Force Lightning than to just learn it. As you suggested, perhaps x2 for Expert and x3 for Master is a power. This will mean that a 'two skill power' will cost 20 CPs or 4 'pips' to reach Expert level. A 'three skill power' will cost 30 CPs or 6 'pips'. Is this what you meant?
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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My concern over added dice is ease of play. In my group, I've got a guy who wears armor and it can slow thins down waiting for him to add up and subtract dice.A level is a bit more powerful than 1D. I'ts when you get to 2 or 3 levels that is becomes significantly better than dice.
What I meant for cost is that since the higher levels provide a greater benefit they should have a greater than linear cost to increase. Basically going from Jouneyman to Expert is about twice as good as going from Novice to Joorneyman, so it probably SHOULD cost twice as much if not more. I7d lead towards a 1x/2x/4x cost as a starting point.
As for CP/powrer slot s:, I'd advise against power slots, since they are easy to get if some has a master. I think it would make it much too easy for a PC to master a ower before moving onto a new one. In most cases a PC would be better sevred with master of, say, Lightsaber Combat (with a guaranteed activation and no MAP penalties) that by taking several other powers that won7t be very reliablre.
You might want to treat expert and master ranks like advanced skills and require a certain level in Force skills before they can be attained. Maybe something like 5D and 8D. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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Whats attractive with lowering difficulties is that it ties in with reducing MAPs which is now a separate rule. Also, as this will realistically at most lower difficulties two levels its within workable levels.
Im actually thinking of requiring both power slots and CPs. I havent really thought out the multipliers, but 1, 2, 3 seems reasonable. Regarding CPs, by the RAW is it 5 CPs for a power, or 5 CPs per skill the power is based on?
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| What about instead of lowering difficulty levels, or adding dice, you give a -3 or -4 modifier to the difficulty? Or, grant +3 +5 to skill checks. |
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ggmoridin
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Regarding CPs, by the RAW is it 5 CPs for a power, or 5 CPs per skill the power is based on? |
to my knowledge its 5 cp's per power but you don't get the +1 pip for the skill |
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