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atgxtg
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 Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | Oops. Seems, as my posting goes, this was a spectacular case of "foot, meet mouth". Hope I didn't offend you guys. In my (very flimsy, I'm aware) defense, this is somewhat of my pet peeve. "Oh look. Someone is making the 'But you don't really dodge bullets, you know' speech. Is it that time of the year already?" |
No offense taken. If we can't debate things and disagree there wouldn't be much point of a forum, now would there? We get to exchange ideas and points of view. I would be kind of foolish to expect everyones views to match mine.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I think you missed my point. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I sure as hell did, yes. It happens to me sometimes with points. I'd like to say it's because the little buggers can often have a ton of dice in their Dodge, but it's much more plausible I'm just not that good of a shot  |
You're not the only one. It is easy to miss context or for the author to assume that someone is following him, or that he wrote something that he meant to. Miscommunication and misunderstanding are inevitable.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Since lasers travel at the speed of light, and I can't see someone getting a penalty to dodge a slower moving MG burst. If anything the MG burst should be easier to dodge, as the PC has a lot more time to do so. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: | | With single fire you'd get absolutelty no argument from me. But what about a rapid firing machine gun, filling several meters of battlefield with lots (depending on the MG it could well be a hundred or more) of flying bullets, versus a single shot from a laser? That's what I ment. Would you say such a killing ground still be easier to dodge (dodge in game terms) that a single laser? |
Yeah, I'd say it would be just as easy to "dodge" since the shooter is making the same sort of corrections to his aim to account for the dodger.
That said, I am the guy who gave autofire weapons a Burst Value that could be spent as a bonus to Fire Control, so you kinda of caught me on both sides of the argument here. You could go find my other thread and hit me with it. 
But, one thing that I think the "bonus to hit" method has in its favor is that it is easier to handle situations where the guy with the MG sprays more than one target. It is a lost easier to break up "Burst Dice" among two or three targets than it probably is to readjust a penalty.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Also, while we're on the subject. Being anal and playing Captain Obvious (I've already made an @$$ of myself, your opinion can't sink that much lower ), |
Guess again! And not in a bad way. With the communications difficulties I mentioned earlier, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Even taking your post at it's worst, you haven't sunk down too far. I've seen a lot ruder, angrier, and stupider posts, so either you're not that bad or you haven't been applying yourself! 
Seriously, I've seen some rather vicious posters (not here, fortunately), and was involved in one incident that was so bad that the people I was debating with ended up defending me from others. This is nothing.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I'd have to point out that no handheld energy weapons in Star Wars that I can remember are lasers or described as such. The're blasters, and as we've repeatedly seen in the movies blasters act nothing like lasers. Most importantly, they assuredly don't travel at the speed of light. If anything, blaster bolts are significantly slower than even conventional firearm bullets. |
True. The question is are the bolts really that slow, or is that just special effects for the audience.
| atgxtg wrote: | Well first off, the rules do mention that grenades can be thrown at a target area.
As for characters being completely screwed, not quite. First off I don't have grenades go off on contact with the ground. Instead, there is usually some time (a couple of seconds) for someone to try and throw it away (as per the 2nd R&E book), to dive behind some cover (gaining the cover bonus), or to try and move out of the blast area (thier runing success determining how many meters they moved before the greande goes off).
What I don't allow is someone to just roll a dodge roll and wade through the area ingoring the grenade. I don't run it like D&D, where the PCs makes a save so he isn't affected in anyway.
Dodging represents thing like moving erratically to make you character harder to target. It should be of much use against an attack that isn't specially targeting the character, but which the character is merely within the area of affect. I don't allow character to dodge explosive blast radii or gas clouds or other saturation effects. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Ah, I think I get it now. Let me try to take this apart |
| atgxtg wrote: | | As for characters being completely screwed, not quite. First off I don't have grenades go off on contact with the ground. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
That's nice of you |
It is also more realistic, too. In the real world there are quite a few reasons why most grenades don't have contact detonators. Most have fuses that go off in about 4 seconds. That is usually a little too long, and experienced soldiers might hold one for a second before throwing so that the other guy doesn't have enough time to throw it back.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Instead, there is usually some time (a couple of seconds) for someone to try and throw it away (as per the 2nd R&E book), to dive behind some cover (gaining the cover bonus), or to try and move out of the blast area (thier runing success determining how many meters they moved before the greande goes off). |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
So you do allow characters to react to an area attack, just not as a Reaction Skill (and I did kind of filter that you could do that out of my mind  ). But there are grenades or other area effect weapons in the game, like missiles, that may also target the ground but do go off on impact. What then? Are the characters screwed then? |
Technically, it wouldn't be a reaction skill, but then I will allow nearly any skill to be used to "react" when it is appropriate. I'll allow Jump, Throw and even Swim to be used as "reaction skills" under the right circumstances.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
But there are grenades or other area effect weapons in the game, like missiles, that may also target the ground but do go off on impact. What then? Are the characters screwed then? |
Generally, yes. But then, generally, I try to avoid writing adventures where the PCs are going to be shot at by weapons in the overkill range. There is not a lot a PC can do if you shoot at him with a 60mm mortar, or the star wars equivalent. Find some cover, stay there, hope they don't hit you, and wait for it to stop.
The vast majority of the combat I run are character vs. character, or starfighter vs. starighter, Anything else and somebody is probably in trouble.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I don't run it like D&D, where the PCs makes a save so he isn't affected in anyway. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
But the basic Reaction Skill Dodge does in fact work very much the same as a D&D save - you beat the difficulty (attackers to-hit roll), you're safe. |
Which is why I don't allow it to work against explosions. It's like having Bali Organa show up and say" The Death Star? Oh, I made my dodge roll." [By the RAW, the Death Star hadn't a chance of hitting any person on Alderaan].
I used to see guys in D&D supposedly save against a fireball, yet all they did was rush towards the spellcaster. When I'm running D6, in order for someone to be able to "dodge" a grenade, they need to have cover of some sort to move behind, and then decide to do so. No forward change dodges of explosions.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Dodging represents thing like moving erratically to make you character harder to target. It should be of much use against an attack that isn't specially targeting the character, but which the character is merely within the area of affect. I don't allow character to dodge explosive blast radii or gas clouds or other saturation effects. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I can't quite agree. Dodging should be more difficult against area of effect attacks, precisely because such attacks do not need to hit the character directly to affect him, agreed. But it should be of some use, I believe. |
I think the problem here is that we are arguing if one impossible thing is easier to do than another impossible thing.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
It depends on how far you move, of course, but generally your moving erraticaly will make you harder to target also for a grenade-lobbing (missile/net/etc. firing) opponent. Sure, he gets much leeway as he doesn't need to pinpoint your location exactly, just hit the general area around you, but you're still forcing him to adjust his aim somewhat. If he adjusts it wrong, he could land the blast too far from you, catching you with its edge only, from which you should be able to dodge away.
Also, and much more importantly, I just don't really see why a character should be able do dodge against a pin-point attack aimed directly at him, which we said you can't realistically dodge anyway, but not an area-of-effect attack aimed at his vicinity. It's still a threat to him. Is it really so important that the character doesn't get an instant reaction like from a Reaction Skill (be it even not a Dodge but a Running roll, as this really seemes to make more sense), but must react only once his turn in the round comes along? |
It is more a case of there not being any place to dodge to. With a single shot, there is a "line" that the traget must avoid to dodge. Even with a burst from a machine gun, the dodger only needs to avoid a "cone" where the shots travel.
But with a grenade it is entirely different. A decent fragmentation grenade saturates the burst radius with hundreds of small fragments. If you are there, you are hit. And there is a pretty good sized area.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Especially as this creates the problem with being basically defenseless against impact-triggered blasts, as I mention above? To use your argument about attack speeds, a grenade in flight is even slower than a firearm bullet, so you have even more time to judge where it's going to fall and react accordingly |
But you can't really move out of the grenades area of effect. At least not with one of our old fashioned jobs. And if you tried, you be making yourself an easier target for the enemy to shoot.
Consider this: A PC throws a grenade into a foxhole full of Stromtroopers. If the troopers can just dodge, then somehow the fragments missed them! If the troopers get out of the fox hole to get away before the grenade detonates, if you use dodge, they actually are deffending against blaster fire too!
But if you say the have to use Clibing/Jumping to get out of the foxhole in time, and that doing so applies a MAP to thier dodge rolls to avoid enemy fire, the troopers are in a tough spot. Which is how it should be.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
(if you see it comming of course, but that's true for all attacks). If you judge it wrong? Well, the rules of dodging do allow for unwittingly dodging into enemy fire so I see no problem.
Maybe I'm missing something again. Maybe it's just a matter of taste. Maybe I'm talking out of my rear - wouldn't be the first time |
The thing with area effect weapons is that it doesn't matter much if the area is larger than the rate that people move. For example, consider an artillery barrage. Dodging is absolutely worthless, as the explosions cover too large a radius.
Even with something like a grenade, with luck a character might have a second or two to act, and could not get out of the blast radius in time (grenades in Star Wars have a much smaller area of effect that the low tech stuff we use).
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Esoomian
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Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Yup, I totally didn't clue in on the context. My fault entirely. Sorry. |
Not a problem. If you're going to be offended when someone misinterprets your post and then reponds with that misinterpretation in mind then you shouldn't be on the Internet. Also I could have been more clear in what I was saying. Sometimes I forget that in a written medium you have to be more explicite in your intent than a verbal conversation.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I'd have to point out that no handheld energy weapons in Star Wars that I can remember are lasers or described as such. The're blasters, and as we've repeatedly seen in the movies blasters act nothing like lasers. Most importantly, they assuredly don't travel at the speed of light. If anything, blaster bolts are significantly slower than even conventional firearm bullets. |
From what I've read a blaster is supposed to fire high temperature gas that is held together by a magnetic field. That's why in the maglocked garbage crusher in the Death Star the blaster bolts bounced around rather than impacting in the normal fashion. That said either ferrous metals are rare to non existant in the Star Wars universe or the blaster only has some magnetic qualities... That was somewhat off topic. It does seem from the films that blaster travel slower than the speed of light but as far as I know magnetic fields travel at a similar speed to light so perhaps what people see when they see a blaster bolt is just some form of persistance of vision.
| atgxtg wrote: |
True. The question is are the bolts really that slow, or is that just special effects for the audience. |
I've always assumed blaster bolts are perceptible because it adds to the drama when you see characters frantically dodging them.
| atgxtg wrote: | As for characters being completely screwed, not quite. First off I don't have grenades go off on contact with the ground.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
That's nice of you |
It is also more realistic, too. In the real world there are quite a few reasons why most grenades don't have contact detonators. Most have fuses that go off in about 4 seconds. That is usually a little too long, and experienced soldiers might hold one for a second before throwing so that the other guy doesn't have enough time to throw it back. |
I've always thought if the grenade roll was good enough then the thrower held onto the grenade just long enough and it will detonate just before it hits the ground. Although usually they have to beat the difficulty by 5-10 points to achive this.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Leon The Lion wrote: |
Especially as this creates the problem with being basically defenseless against impact-triggered blasts, as I mention above? To use your argument about attack speeds, a grenade in flight is even slower than a firearm bullet, so you have even more time to judge where it's going to fall and react accordingly |
But you can't really move out of the grenades area of effect. At least not with one of our old fashioned jobs. And if you tried, you be making yourself an easier target for the enemy to shoot.
Consider this: A PC throws a grenade into a foxhole full of Stromtroopers. If the troopers can just dodge, then somehow the fragments missed them! If the troopers get out of the fox hole to get away before the grenade detonates, if you use dodge, they actually are deffending against blaster fire too! |
Somewhat off topic here but somewhere on this forum a while back there was a discussion about what happens with grenades and explosives in small spaces where the full blast radius cannot be reached. One of the suggestions was that the damage be increased by 1D for every reduction of 1 in the blast radius.
If this is a case then you really want to vacate a foxhole with a live grenade and take your chances with the blaster fire.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: |
Somewhat off topic here but somewhere on this forum a while back there was a discussion about what happens with grenades and explosives in small spaces where the full blast radius cannot be reached. One of the suggestions was that the damage be increased by 1D for every reduction of 1 in the blast radius. |
Ouch! IMO a bit much. I can think of all the guys who have dove on top of a grenade to save their buddies. With +1D per meter they wouldn't even provide much protection as soft cover.
I'd probably go with +1D, maybe +2D if below half radius.
| Esoomian wrote: |
If this is a case then you really want to vacate a foxhole with a live grenade and take your chances with the blaster fire. |
Not if all it takes is a successful dodge roll.
| Esoomian wrote: |
I've always thought if the grenade roll was good enough then the thrower held onto the grenade just long enough and it will detonate just before it hits the ground. Although usually they have to beat the difficulty by 5-10 points to achive this. |
I let the guys hold the grenade for one or more actions. This gives the thrower MAPs (so don't hold it for too long,or else it might go boom in your hand).
If anyone tries to pick up and throw the grenade after it has been thrown (or dropped, curse you wild die!), they suffer MAPs for the actions the grenade was held. This means that the guys on the receiving end had better be quick, lucky,or have an FP or some CPs to spend. Especially if the grenade comes in after the character has done two or three actions. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Esoomian wrote: |
Somewhat off topic here but somewhere on this forum a while back there was a discussion about what happens with grenades and explosives in small spaces where the full blast radius cannot be reached. One of the suggestions was that the damage be increased by 1D for every reduction of 1 in the blast radius. |
Ouch! IMO a bit much. I can think of all the guys who have dove on top of a grenade to save their buddies. With +1D per meter they wouldn't even provide much protection as soft cover.
I'd probably go with +1D, maybe +2D if below half radius. |
If someone jumps on a grenade then I've always thought they take the full force of the grenade, it does max damage (no wild) without rolling and everyone else is safe.
So a 4D grenade gets an automatic 24 on damage if you dive on it. I could say any unsoaked damage then gets to be applied to those nearby but it's too much hassle and not so cinematic.
| Esoomian wrote: |
I've always thought if the grenade roll was good enough then the thrower held onto the grenade just long enough and it will detonate just before it hits the ground. Although usually they have to beat the difficulty by 5-10 points to achive this. |
| atgxtg wrote: |
I let the guys hold the grenade for one or more actions. This gives the thrower MAPs (so don't hold it for too long,or else it might go boom in your hand).
If anyone tries to pick up and throw the grenade after it has been thrown (or dropped, curse you wild die!), they suffer MAPs for the actions the grenade was held. This means that the guys on the receiving end had better be quick, lucky,or have an FP or some CPs to spend. Especially if the grenade comes in after the character has done two or three actions. |
That's actually a pretty decent way of handling it.
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Leon The Lion
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 1:38 am Post subject: |
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Well, I guess we got as far as we can. Beyond this point we'll just have to agree to disagree, I think.
I think I fully understand now what you mean and where you're coming from. But I will allow evading of blasts and other area effect attacks. Not with Dodge – I already thought you were right before, and the Stormtrooper example just proved it beyond doubt - Running, Jump/Climb (or maybe even Swim, depending on the situation) are far more appropriate in this situation. But I just like my Star Wars reality to be closer to movie-real instead of real-world-real in this case, so I will allow for the reaction – at least if the target can see the attack coming or otherwise has some warning before it explodes. In the case of your example with the mortar: really big blasts will be impossible to fully "dodge", but the character will have a chance to reach some cover at least, if the attack catches him on open ground, instead of being – quite realistically - obliterated by any mortar round that falls within 30m or so of him.
Just a matter of taste, I guess. I like using grenades – they're great fun (just ask Madoka, the 11-year old Mandalorian girl my PC's befriended  ), and using such cinematic rules allows me and my characters to play with them without fear of realistic instant overkill, on PC's and NPC's alike, while still keeping them plenty dangerous.
| Esoomian wrote: | | Somewhat off topic here but somewhere on this forum a while back there was a discussion about what happens with grenades and explosives in small spaces where the full blast radius cannot be reached. One of the suggestions was that the damage be increased by 1D for every reduction of 1 in the blast radius. |
| atgxtg wrote: | Ouch! IMO a bit much. I can think of all the guys who have dove on top of a grenade to save their buddies. With +1D per meter they wouldn't even provide much protection as soft cover.
I'd probably go with +1D, maybe +2D if below half radius. |
Hmm, could we meet half-way on this? My initial impulse would be to increase damage by 1D for each full blast band that didn't fit in the room.
| Esoomian wrote: | | If someone jumps on a grenade then I've always thought they take the full force of the grenade, it does max damage (no wild) without rolling and everyone else is safe. |
I like this. I'd probably also apply this when somebody presses the barrel of their weapon to the target and pulls the trigger.
| atgxtg wrote: | I let the guys hold the grenade for one or more actions. This gives the thrower MAPs (so don't hold it for too long,or else it might go boom in your hand).
If anyone tries to pick up and throw the grenade after it has been thrown (or dropped, curse you wild die!), they suffer MAPs for the actions the grenade was held. This means that the guys on the receiving end had better be quick, lucky,or have an FP or some CPs to spend. Especially if the grenade comes in after the character has done two or three actions. |
And this, too.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I can't quite agree. Dodging should be more difficult against area of effect attacks, precisely because such attacks do not need to hit the character directly to affect him, agreed. But it should be of some use, I believe. It depends on how far you move, of course, but generally your moving erraticaly will make you harder to target also for a grenade-lobbing (missile/net/etc. firing) opponent. |
The group i play in, has it where 'aerodynamic grenades of 6d or less damage' are fully dodged (even if they have a 18 meter blast radius) on a successful dodge. Where those of 7d or more or NON Aerodynamic greandes (inc thermal dets) just have you dropping down 2 blast zones.
I have NEVER liked this rule, nd when i game i have it that they only go down 2 blast zones for a successful dodge, 3 for beating it by 15 or more.
| Quote: | | It is also more realistic, too. In the real world there are quite a few reasons why most grenades don't have contact detonators. Most have fuses that go off in about 4 seconds. That is usually a little too long, and experienced soldiers might hold one for a second before throwing so that the other guy doesn't have enough time to throw it back. |
IN basic, we were taught, pull, count 2 and toss.
| Quote: | | If someone jumps on a grenade then I've always thought they take the full force of the grenade, it does max damage (no wild) without rolling and everyone else is safe. |
That is a nice house rule.
Personally i like how one other gm phrased it. The "Red mist rule" as he called it.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
IN basic, we were taught, pull, count 2 and toss.
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I'm not surprised. When I was a kid, a guy who fought during WWII told me how they used to throw the grenades only to have then get thrown back. So relatively quickly, they started to hold them for a 2 count.
And I suspect that is was part of basic training back then too, but that the first time in combat a lot of guys panicked and just got rid of the things as fast as possible. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | Well, I guess we got as far as we can. Beyond this point we'll just have to agree to disagree, I think.
I think I fully understand now what you mean and where you're coming from. But I will allow evading of blasts and other area effect attacks. Not with Dodge – I already thought you were right before, and the Stormtrooper example just proved it beyond doubt - Running, Jump/Climb (or maybe even Swim, depending on the situation) are far more appropriate in this situation. But I just like my Star Wars reality to be closer to movie-real instead of real-world-real in this case, so I will allow for the reaction – at least if the target can see the attack coming or otherwise has some warning before it explodes. In the case of your example with the mortar: really big blasts will be impossible to fully "dodge", but the character will have a chance to reach some cover at least, if the attack catches him on open ground, instead of being – quite realistically - obliterated by any mortar round that falls within 30m or so of him.
Just a matter of taste, I guess. I like using grenades – they're great fun (just ask Madoka, the 11-year old Mandalorian girl my PC's befriended ), and using such cinematic rules allows me and my characters to play with them without fear of realistic instant overkill, on PC's and NPC's alike, while still keeping them plenty dangerous. |
Yup, much of it is personal taste. I'm just leery of someone with Dodge at 8D waltzing through the battlefield ignoring grenades because he has a much higher skill than his 4D, multi-tasking foes.
As long as you combine movement into the equation, keep the move once limitation from the core book, and characters are actually forced to dive for cover and stay there for the round, it seems reasonable to me.
I just don't like the idea of people walking through blasts completely unscathed because they made their save.
I also think this kind of explains our other disagreement (about dodging). Most of the things you want to assign dodge penalties for are things I don't allow characters to dodge in the first place.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Hmm, could we meet half-way on this? My initial impulse would be to increase damage by 1D for each full blast band that didn't fit in the room. |
That was my initial impulse too. Then I thought of how weapons scale in D6, with rifles only doing 1D more damage than pistols. I just don't see a grenade, even at point blank range, being more lethal than a heavy repeating blaster (8D).
Plus, with real frag grenades, blast armor would be very effective. Most of the damage comes from the fragments, not the explosive blast, and those fragments don't have a lot of penetrating power. Stromtrooper armor is probably frag poof. [/quote]
| Esoomian wrote: | | If someone jumps on a grenade then I've always thought they take the full force of the grenade, it does max damage (no wild) without rolling and everyone else is safe. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I like this. I'd probably also apply this when somebody presses the barrel of their weapon to the target and pulls the trigger. |
I'd probably just give them double damage (10D) or 24+wild die, which would usually be a little worse than max, but along the same lines.
I'd probably use Max double (well 54 plus wild die) for someone/thing that actually swallows a grenade. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: |
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That is why you hae the greade tossers set them for Impact and try and BEAN him in the belly!
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone use the grenade scatter chart?
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2010 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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yes, but iirc that only comes into play if you miss.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | Does anyone use the grenade scatter chart? |
All the time. But my players haven't raised their grenade skill much. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Leon The Lion wrote: | | Oops. Seems, as my posting goes, this was a spectacular case of "foot, meet mouth". Hope I didn't offend you guys. In my (very flimsy, I'm aware) defense, this is somewhat of my pet peeve. "Oh look. Someone is making the 'But you don't really dodge bullets, you know' speech. Is it that time of the year already?" |
No offense taken. If we can't debate things and disagree there wouldn't be much point of a forum, now would there? We get to exchange ideas and points of view. I would be kind of foolish to expect everyones views to match mine.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I think you missed my point. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I sure as hell did, yes. It happens to me sometimes with points. I'd like to say it's because the little buggers can often have a ton of dice in their Dodge, but it's much more plausible I'm just not that good of a shot |
You're not the only one. It is easy to miss context or for the author to assume that someone is following him, or that he wrote something that he meant to. Miscommunication and misunderstanding are inevitable.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Since lasers travel at the speed of light, and I can't see someone getting a penalty to dodge a slower moving MG burst. If anything the MG burst should be easier to dodge, as the PC has a lot more time to do so. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: | | With single fire you'd get absolutelty no argument from me. But what about a rapid firing machine gun, filling several meters of battlefield with lots (depending on the MG it could well be a hundred or more) of flying bullets, versus a single shot from a laser? That's what I ment. Would you say such a killing ground still be easier to dodge (dodge in game terms) that a single laser? |
Yeah, I'd say it would be just as easy to "dodge" since the shooter is making the same sort of corrections to his aim to account for the dodger.
That said, I am the guy who gave autofire weapons a Burst Value that could be spent as a bonus to Fire Control, so you kinda of caught me on both sides of the argument here. You could go find my other thread and hit me with it.
But, one thing that I think the "bonus to hit" method has in its favor is that it is easier to handle situations where the guy with the MG sprays more than one target. It is a lost easier to break up "Burst Dice" among two or three targets than it probably is to readjust a penalty.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Also, while we're on the subject. Being anal and playing Captain Obvious (I've already made an @$$ of myself, your opinion can't sink that much lower ), |
Guess again! And not in a bad way. With the communications difficulties I mentioned earlier, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. Even taking your post at it's worst, you haven't sunk down too far. I've seen a lot ruder, angrier, and stupider posts, so either you're not that bad or you haven't been applying yourself!
Seriously, I've seen some rather vicious posters (not here, fortunately), and was involved in one incident that was so bad that the people I was debating with ended up defending me from others. This is nothing.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I'd have to point out that no handheld energy weapons in Star Wars that I can remember are lasers or described as such. The're blasters, and as we've repeatedly seen in the movies blasters act nothing like lasers. Most importantly, they assuredly don't travel at the speed of light. If anything, blaster bolts are significantly slower than even conventional firearm bullets. |
True. The question is are the bolts really that slow, or is that just special effects for the audience.
| atgxtg wrote: | Well first off, the rules do mention that grenades can be thrown at a target area.
As for characters being completely screwed, not quite. First off I don't have grenades go off on contact with the ground. Instead, there is usually some time (a couple of seconds) for someone to try and throw it away (as per the 2nd R&E book), to dive behind some cover (gaining the cover bonus), or to try and move out of the blast area (thier runing success determining how many meters they moved before the greande goes off).
What I don't allow is someone to just roll a dodge roll and wade through the area ingoring the grenade. I don't run it like D&D, where the PCs makes a save so he isn't affected in anyway.
Dodging represents thing like moving erratically to make you character harder to target. It should be of much use against an attack that isn't specially targeting the character, but which the character is merely within the area of affect. I don't allow character to dodge explosive blast radii or gas clouds or other saturation effects. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Ah, I think I get it now. Let me try to take this apart |
| atgxtg wrote: | | As for characters being completely screwed, not quite. First off I don't have grenades go off on contact with the ground. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
That's nice of you |
It is also more realistic, too. In the real world there are quite a few reasons why most grenades don't have contact detonators. Most have fuses that go off in about 4 seconds. That is usually a little too long, and experienced soldiers might hold one for a second before throwing so that the other guy doesn't have enough time to throw it back.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Instead, there is usually some time (a couple of seconds) for someone to try and throw it away (as per the 2nd R&E book), to dive behind some cover (gaining the cover bonus), or to try and move out of the blast area (thier runing success determining how many meters they moved before the greande goes off). |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
So you do allow characters to react to an area attack, just not as a Reaction Skill (and I did kind of filter that you could do that out of my mind ). But there are grenades or other area effect weapons in the game, like missiles, that may also target the ground but do go off on impact. What then? Are the characters screwed then? |
Technically, it wouldn't be a reaction skill, but then I will allow nearly any skill to be used to "react" when it is appropriate. I'll allow Jump, Throw and even Swim to be used as "reaction skills" under the right circumstances.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
But there are grenades or other area effect weapons in the game, like missiles, that may also target the ground but do go off on impact. What then? Are the characters screwed then? |
Generally, yes. But then, generally, I try to avoid writing adventures where the PCs are going to be shot at by weapons in the overkill range. There is not a lot a PC can do if you shoot at him with a 60mm mortar, or the star wars equivalent. Find some cover, stay there, hope they don't hit you, and wait for it to stop.
The vast majority of the combat I run are character vs. character, or starfighter vs. starighter, Anything else and somebody is probably in trouble.
| atgxtg wrote: | | I don't run it like D&D, where the PCs makes a save so he isn't affected in anyway. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
But the basic Reaction Skill Dodge does in fact work very much the same as a D&D save - you beat the difficulty (attackers to-hit roll), you're safe. |
Which is why I don't allow it to work against explosions. It's like having Bali Organa show up and say" The Death Star? Oh, I made my dodge roll." [By the RAW, the Death Star hadn't a chance of hitting any person on Alderaan].
I used to see guys in D&D supposedly save against a fireball, yet all they did was rush towards the spellcaster. When I'm running D6, in order for someone to be able to "dodge" a grenade, they need to have cover of some sort to move behind, and then decide to do so. No forward change dodges of explosions.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Dodging represents thing like moving erratically to make you character harder to target. It should be of much use against an attack that isn't specially targeting the character, but which the character is merely within the area of affect. I don't allow character to dodge explosive blast radii or gas clouds or other saturation effects. |
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
I can't quite agree. Dodging should be more difficult against area of effect attacks, precisely because such attacks do not need to hit the character directly to affect him, agreed. But it should be of some use, I believe. |
I think the problem here is that we are arguing if one impossible thing is easier to do than another impossible thing.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
It depends on how far you move, of course, but generally your moving erraticaly will make you harder to target also for a grenade-lobbing (missile/net/etc. firing) opponent. Sure, he gets much leeway as he doesn't need to pinpoint your location exactly, just hit the general area around you, but you're still forcing him to adjust his aim somewhat. If he adjusts it wrong, he could land the blast too far from you, catching you with its edge only, from which you should be able to dodge away.
Also, and much more importantly, I just don't really see why a character should be able do dodge against a pin-point attack aimed directly at him, which we said you can't realistically dodge anyway, but not an area-of-effect attack aimed at his vicinity. It's still a threat to him. Is it really so important that the character doesn't get an instant reaction like from a Reaction Skill (be it even not a Dodge but a Running roll, as this really seemes to make more sense), but must react only once his turn in the round comes along? |
It is more a case of there not being any place to dodge to. With a single shot, there is a "line" that the traget must avoid to dodge. Even with a burst from a machine gun, the dodger only needs to avoid a "cone" where the shots travel.
But with a grenade it is entirely different. A decent fragmentation grenade saturates the burst radius with hundreds of small fragments. If you are there, you are hit. And there is a pretty good sized area.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
Especially as this creates the problem with being basically defenseless against impact-triggered blasts, as I mention above? To use your argument about attack speeds, a grenade in flight is even slower than a firearm bullet, so you have even more time to judge where it's going to fall and react accordingly |
But you can't really move out of the grenades area of effect. At least not with one of our old fashioned jobs. And if you tried, you be making yourself an easier target for the enemy to shoot.
Consider this: A PC throws a grenade into a foxhole full of Stromtroopers. If the troopers can just dodge, then somehow the fragments missed them! If the troopers get out of the fox hole to get away before the grenade detonates, if you use dodge, they actually are deffending against blaster fire too!
But if you say the have to use Clibing/Jumping to get out of the foxhole in time, and that doing so applies a MAP to thier dodge rolls to avoid enemy fire, the troopers are in a tough spot. Which is how it should be.
| Leon The Lion wrote: |
(if you see it comming of course, but that's true for all attacks). If you judge it wrong? Well, the rules of dodging do allow for unwittingly dodging into enemy fire so I see no problem.
Maybe I'm missing something again. Maybe it's just a matter of taste. Maybe I'm talking out of my rear - wouldn't be the first time |
The thing with area effect weapons is that it doesn't matter much if the area is larger than the rate that people move. For example, consider an artillery barrage. Dodging is absolutely worthless, as the explosions cover too large a radius.
Even with something like a grenade, with luck a character might have a second or two to act, and could not get out of the blast radius in time (grenades in Star Wars have a much smaller area of effect that the low tech stuff we use).
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AAAAH!
This is turning into another quote, counter quote and counter counter quote thread thats impossible to follow!
Remember the thread you mention above (the autofire thread) where posts took so long to write that you got logged out due to inactivity while you wrote... 
Keep it clean any by the rules folks! |
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. I haven't been online in a few days and have tried to catch up on this thread.
I gave up at the top of this page.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 11:57 am Post subject: |
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I was looking at D6 Space, and spottting an interesting grenade rule. Characters who haven't move yet can make an Agility/Dodge roll vs Diff 15, to move 1 Zone farther away from the blast radius. Each addtioal Zone is +4. In D6 Space all greandes have 3 zones (full/half/quarter damage)
Adapting this to Star Wars D6....
Difficulty: Moderate
Move 1 addtional zone per 3 points above the difficulty. |
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