Lightsaber Form vs Form

[Raven Redstar]

Care to post some of your rules Azai?

[Azai]

Yea, sure. Keep in mind I am still always going back to try and tweak everything. And it has been designed for my eyes, so it may not be the most readable in some places ;P

Also my goal was to try and do my best to keep true to the styles, while making them still different. Some forms are obviously better then others, but hopefully with requirements it will balance out.

Shien, Ataru, and Juyo are always ones I am always working on or trying to fix. So if anyone have any ideas fire away. For that matter I am always up for advice on any of the other styles too.

Lightsaber Styles:

Shii Cho: Form I "The Way of the Sarlacc"

Description:
This, also known as Form One, is the basic form taught to all beginning students. Shii-Cho was specialized towards engaging multiple opponents, and deflecting blaster bolts. The wide, sweeping motions being ideally suited towards attacking numerous adversaries. However, Form I was not as useful against single opponents, as such enemies had complete mobility and could find a weakness in Shii-Cho's comparatively clumsy blade work

Difficulty: Difficult

Effect:
Shii Cho grants the user +1D to all blaster parries, +1D to attacks when facing more then one person. Though parries in a melee one on one are made at -3D.

Prerequisites: None

Expert Shii Cho - 8D-11D
The practitioner gains +2D to all blaster parries, and +1D to attacks and parry when fighting more then one opponent. Though still suffer -2D when when dueling one on one. Additionally, the practitioner can make a single redirection attempt with no Multiple Action Penalty.

Master Shii Cho - 12D
The practitioner gains +3D to all blaster parries, +1D to attacks. When facing more then one opponent the attack bonuses increases to +2D. Additionally, the practitioner can make two redirection attempts with no Multiple Action Penalty. -1D When dueling one on one, but if the opponent makes more then one attack per round this negative is removed

Makashi: Form II "The way of the Ysalamiri"

Description:
This is the second Form of lightsaber combat, and its sole focus is on dueling. It relies on parries, thrusts, and small, precise cuts. However, being designed as a dueling form it it held a weakness against defending against blaster fire, and was better suited for one on one engagements then multiple opponents.

Difficulty: Difficult

Effect:
When fighting one opponent in melee combat, the user of this style gains +1D to attack and defense. All attempts to parry blaster bolts are at -3D however, including the multiple action penalty. If more than one person is fighting the character, the bonuses are removed, though the penalties remain.

Prerequisites: None

Expert Makashi - 8D-11D
The practitioner gains +2D to attack and +1D defense when fighting one opponent. They parry blaster bolts at -2D.

Master Makashi - 12D
With Mastery, the practitioner gets +3D to attack and +2D defense when facing an opponent one on one. Once the number is increased they lose the bonuses of the style. They also still have -1D to deflect blaster bolts.

Soresu: Form III "The way of the Mynock"

Description:
Soresu form was to counter blaster-wielding opponents, as the previous combat styles focused on lightsaber dueling. Becoming the most defensive of the seven forms, Soresu utilized tight moves, subtle dodges and short sweeps designed to provide maximum defensive coverage, leaving the duelist less exposed to ranged fire. Over time, Form III came to transcend this basic origin and become an expression of non-aggressive Jedi philosophy.

Difficulty: Difficult

Effect:
The character receives +1D to all parry attempts, including against blasters, though attack rolls are made at -3D. They also must make a stamina check every round, after four rounds of combat. It is a moderate check.

Prerequisites: 5D Stamina

Expert Soresu - 8D-11D
The practitioner gains +2D to all parry attempts and -2D to all attack rolls. If they are facing more then three attacks, an Expert Soresu user is allowed to make a 'free' parry during the round, that won't occur a multiple-action penalty. An expert of Soresu has to make a Stamina check after five rounds of combat, the check is moderate.


Master Soresu - 12D
The practitioner gains +3D to all parry attempts. If a Soresu master is facing more then three attacks in one round, they get to have two parries as a 'free' action during a combat round that don't count against occurring a multiple-action penalty. They receive -2D to attacks. A Master of Soresu has to make a Stamina check after six rounds of combat, the check is moderate.

Ataru: Form IV "The way of the Hawk-Bat"

Description:

Ataru was an aggressive combat form relying on a combination of power, strength, and speed. Practitioners of Ataru were always on the offensive, attacking with wide, fast, and powerful swings. Form IV practitioners constantly called upon the force to aid in their movements and attacks. Jedi utilizing Ataru needed to incorporate all the Force powers that involved surpassing normal physical ranges of motion, speed, and agility in order to be successful. Running, jumping, and spinning were all emphasized in learning the elaborate kinetics of the form. Ataru was suited for more one on one fighting, and was known to heavily fatigue the user

Difficulty: Difficult

Effect:
Practitioners of this style gain +1D attack and parries in melee combat, as well as +1D to any Acrobatics rolls.. However, Ataru Basic cannot be used to redirect blaster bolts. After every round the practitioner must make a Stamina check. The check is easy, increasing every time they have to make a check. Also if someone using Ataru is in space where they don't have enough room to move they lose the bonuses this style gives.

Prerequisites: 5D Stamina, 5D Control, 5D Acrobatics

Expert Ataru - 8D-11D
An Expert of Ataru gets +2D to attacks in melee, +2D to parries in melee, and +2D to Acrobatics rolls. An expert can make one free Jumping, or Acrobatics roll per round. The Expert needs only make a stamina check every two rounds.

Master Ataru - 12D
An Master of Ataru gets +3D to attacks in melee, +3D to parries in melee, and +3D to Acrobatics. The Master is allowed a free acrobatic, or jumping action per round. A Master of Ataru needs only make a stamina check every three rounds. They are also allowed to redirect blaster bolts.

Shien /Djem So: Form V "The way of the Krayt Dragon"
Description:
Form V was developed by practitioners of Soresu who felt that the defensively-minded form would unnecessarily extend time spent in combat by forcing its users to wait for an opportunity to strike, rather than creating their own openings. Shien, considered the classical Form V, was more adept at blocking blaster bolts, where as Djem So, developed later, was designed for lightsaber combat. Both Shien and Djem So were designed to use the opponent's attack against them, as evidenced by Shien's focus on returning blaster bolts to their origin.

Difficulty: Difficult
Effect:
The different Variants must be learned and raised separately. Though since they are so closely linked, when the practitioner purchases the variant it starts at what the other variant current skill dice is.

Shien:
When facing more then one attack a Shien Practitioner gains +1D to all parries, though then facing only one attack gains a -3D to all melee parries. They are allowed to redirect a blaster bolt as a 'free' action.

Djem So:
When using Djem So a Practitioner gains a +1D to all Melee Parries, on a successful parry they gain +1D Strength to a free strength check against their opponent. If they are successful their opponent parries at -1D against their next attack. Though Djem So users only have a fourth of their move each round.(Rounded down)

Prerequisites: 3D Strength

Expert Shien:
An Expert of Shien gains +2D to all parries when facing more then one attack, but when only facing one attack gains -2D to all melee parries. They are allowed to redirect two blaster bolts as 'free' actions.

Master Shien:
A Master of Shien gains +3D to all parries when facing more then one attack. Though they receive -1D for melee parries when facing one attack. They are also allowed to redirect three blaster bolts as 'free' actions.

Expert Djem So
An Expert of Djem So gets +2D to all Melee Parries. With a successful parry gets to add +1D Strength to a free strength check against their opponent, if successful their opponent parries their next attack -1D, and the Expert is given no multiple-action penally for counter-attacking during that round. An expert of Djem So only gains half their move

Master Djem So
A Master of Djem So gets +2D to all Melee Parries, and +1D towards a counter attack. Upon a successful parry they get to add +1D to a free strength check against their opponent. If successful their opponent parries the Master's next attack at -2D, and the Master is given no multiple-action penalty for counter-attacking, during that round. They only have 3 fourths of their move.

Niman: Form VI "The way of the Rancor"

Description:
Form VI attempted to balance all elements of lightsaber combat, combining the techniques from Forms that came before into a less intensely demanding combat style. In practice, Form VI was a combination of older forms (Forms I, III, IV, and V), and all of them in moderation. In the blending, much of the individuality was lost, but the strengths were spread evenly, and there was little weakness in it. Due to its "jack-of-all-trades" nature, the success of this form was largely dependent on the practitioner's intuition, improvisation, and creativity in combat rather than the rote responses derived from other forms. This broad generalization made Form VI well suited for diplomats, as they could spend their time training in the areas of politics and negotiation instead of combat training.

Difficulty: Difficult

Effect:
Niman is a balanced fighting art, and as such offers balance of lightsaber combat. Users of this style blend all others, excelling nowhere.

Prerequisites: None

.
Expert Niman
An Expert in Niman gains +1D in all lightsaber abilities, they also gain a +1D to Persuasion in situations where their lightsaber is used, also a +1D to check for initiative.

Master Niman
A Master of Niman gains a +1D to all lightsaber abilities. They also gain a +1D to Persuasion abilities using their lightsaber, gain a +2D check to initiative.

Juyo / Vaapad: Form VII "The way of the Vornskr"

Description
Juyo was described as the most vicious form of lightsaber combat and was said to be filled with both fury and "malignant grace."The form was given the title of the most difficult and demanding form in all of saber combat. Skilled combatants with Juyo were said to be able to "eviscerate a lone enemy." The form was both chaotic and erratic, with a heavy focus on offense.

Difficulty: Difficult

Effects:
All parries against Juyo in the first round are done at -1D, and in the first two rounds of combat the practitioner gains +2D to attacks, and then the following rounds gets +1D to attack. Though users of this style get -3D against force against. If a lightside character gains a DSP while using Juyo, they gain double the amount.

Prerequisites: 6D in Control, 3D Dex, 3D Strength.

Expert of Juyo :
All parries made against an expert of Juyo in the first round are at -1D, in the first two rounds of combat a Juyo user gets +3D to attacks, in the next two they get +2D, and then in all others gain +1D. They have -2D against force attacks.

Master of Juyo:
A parries made against a master of Juyo in the first two rounds are done at -1D, in the first two rounds of combat a Juyo master gains +4D to attack, in the next two +3D to attack, in the next two +2D, and then only +1D. A master of Juyo still has a weakness against force attacks, and has -2D against these attacks


Vaapad:

Description
Vaapad was described as more than a fighting style; it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning. The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent. The form was also mentioned with a cautionary warning by the Jedi that use of Vaapad led the user perilously close to the dark side due to its focus on physical combat. It was consider the most powerful Form, that was only master by one Jedi. A master of Vaapad was said to strike with such speed and power that it looked as if the opponent was fighting tens of lightsaber strikes at once.

Difficulty: Difficult

Effects:
They gain +1D to attacks and defense. Someone using Vaapad gets one 'free' attack per round. Though someone using Vaapad must have at least one DSP. And like Juyo any DSPs gained while using Vaapad are doubled.


Prerequisites: 6D in Control, 6D in Juyo, Vaapad is considered a regular skill. It costs the normal amount to upgrade it.


Expert Level:
An expert at Vaapad gets +1D to attack and Defense, and also gain two free attacks per round, and one free parry.

Master Level
A master of Vaapad gets +2D to attack and defense, three free attacks per round, and two free parries. All of these receive Vaapad's bonuses. The parries may be used against blaster or saber, and can be used against one opponent or more.

Jar'Kar

Description:
Sometimes called Form X, Jar'Kar was the use of two lightsabers at once. Dual-blade fighters, whether classical Niman duelists or individuals applying the Jar'Kai tactic, were able to maintain a strong offense, as the speed of attack that two blades allowed would overwhelm most opponents. A typical maneuver was to continually attack with one blade while relying on the other for defensive coverage, ensuring that the duelist could keep up his guard even as he attacked. However, it was common that both blades be used for offensive purposes, keeping up a continuous wave-front assault.

Difficulty: Difficult

Effects:
Jar'Kar is less then a style, and more using another blade within a Jedi's chosen style. It must be raised like a different style, but it's bonuses are linked to the style. It only adds being able to parry and attack in the same round without occurring the multiple-action penalty. Although the user can only add half of their control dice towards damage.
Also certain styles are unable to wield two lightsabers because of the style. Vaapad, Djem So, Soresu, and Makashi are unable to wield two lightsabers at once and share the benefits of their style. Otherwise wielding two blades gains the same expert, and master benefits as the style it is linked to.

Prerequisites: 5D Control, 6D In their style

[ZzaphodD]

Great inspiration. Add on a few of the different maneuvers associated with the different styles and youre home.

Regarding the difficulties. Do you roll vs the difficulty each round to get the style 'activated', or at the beginning of combat?

If you read the fluff then some styles should be more effective against others. Perhaps having a cross reference table for a few +/- 1D modifiers?

Do you put skill dice in the different forms, or how do you establish that you know a form or what 'grade' you have?
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My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..

[Azai]

That is one thing I haven't really tackled yet. The maneuvers that other people have included within other systems. I keep feeling I still need to tweak the forms to get to that point.

The Difficulty, for me was just something copied over from the usage of a lightsaber. That if you missed it by ten or more you injured yourself. Essentially it doesn't effect the forms other then when it would normally effect wielding a lightsaber. (At least in my games the only time I pay notice is if a Jedi character completely fails when rolling lightsaber. This usually just happens when they don't have lightsaber combat).

How I treat forms, is that they are all specializations under lightsaber skill. Though they start off at half your lightsaber skill. This has also been messed with a bit depending on the timeline. It started that Pre-Empire you -always- started with a form. It is just how Jedi were taught.

For the most part I have kinda kept this for all timeline, to avoid having to do fast, medium, and light lightsaber styles. And also because I really enjoy the flavor the forms bring to the table. Essentially all 'teachers' my players get utilize a certain form that they pass onto them. Hence sometimes people search for holocrams or other teachers to learn new forms. I also go and research a lot of the major heros and NPCs and assign them form that they knew according to Canon and EU.

Also I go back and forth with if they cost half the cps or is treated as a normal skill. I don't want my players to become experts or masters in a majority of the forms, but I also want them to encourage to take a few styles and not just depend on one.

As for the cross reference I kinda leave it up to the bonuses. For example Shii-Cho vs Makashi. The Shii-Cho user gets Minus Ds because they are dueling one person, while the Makashi user gest bonus Ds. So in that way Makashi is made to take on someone who uses Shii-Cho. As Makashi form was made for dueling, and Shii-Cho was more for blaster fire and facing more then one opponent.

And on an end note. I am still not satisfied with Juyo, Shien, and a smaller note Djem So. I like lots of what Djem So does, but it still doesn't feel 'complete'. So if you all have any ideas to tweak those please bring them may way.

[garhkal]

Not bad... not bad indeed...
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[CRMcNeill]

I always thought the "official" names for the forms were overly cheesy, like something someone with only a superficial knowledge of the SWU thought up to sound cool as part of a video game. I've been considering an alternate "Way" naming, based on the mindset of the various forms.

Form I: Shii-Cho - The Way of the Void. The first form learned, it is the basis of all other lightsaber forms. In classical philosophy, the void was the emptiness into which the other elements were poured to create the universe in all its combinations.

Form II: Makashi - The Way of Fire. Named for its more aggressive stance.

Form III: Soresu - The Way of Water. Named for its passive nature and hidden strength, as well as the manner it which it slowly wore its enemies down.

Form IV: Ataru - The Way of Air. Named for its use of acrobatics and force assisted leaps and jumps.

Form V: Shien / Djem So - The Way of Earth. Named for its basic core of strength and resilience

Form VI: Niman - The Way of Light. Named for its non-violent approach and emphasis on harmony and justice

Form VII: Juyo / Vaapad - The Way of Shadow. Named for the darkness in its practitioners own souls, as they were required to indulge in the joy of battle and combat

Form VIII (Theorized Only) - The Way of Aether. In classical philosophy, the Aether was an unknown, incorruptible element, supposedly the stuff of the sun and stars and all unchanging heavenly bodies. As such, Form VIII remained unnamed and purely theoretical for practitioners of the lightsaber. The theory was that a form might exist that would incorporate all the strengths of the other seven forms, with none of their weaknesses. However, any such study or research has been long lost.

[ZzaphodD]

I never liked the 'japanese-ish' original names. Too much anime kewlness for me!
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My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course..

[CRMcNeill]

[Azai]

Not sure, I know I found them the animal names within Wookiepedia.

And I know they are mentioned in games, I -think- it all started with KOTOR: II Sith Lords.

Though from looking at the sources from Wookiepedia the names have started to appear in other EU sources, like books and other games.

[CRMcNeill]

[CRMcNeill]

[CRMcNeill]

Here's another possible addition, based on the Form rules you described above.

Sokan

Description:
Rather than a separate form, Sokan is a principle of lightsaber combat. Sokan teaching revolves around using the dueling environment itself to gain a tactical advantage.

Difficulty: N/A

Effect: Sokan is considered a specialization of Lightsaber. It is not used in direct combat itself, but as a bonus to augment an existing Lightsaber skill. It must be increased or improved as normal for specializations. The skill's dice value is then applied as a bonus, either in part or in whole, to a Lightsaber Combat roll (either basic lightsaber or one of the seven forms). The total skill dice can only be used once per lightsaber duel, but is immediately regained at the duel's end.

For example, a Jedi Sokan adept with a Sokan skill of 8D may use that 8D chooses to expend 4D of his Sokan dice in an attack. Whether that attack succeeds or not, the Jedi still has another 4D available as a bonus that can be applied at any time, but the 4D he has already used, he doesn't regain until the duel ends.

IMO, this rule would work best with the Dueling Blades alternative rules, but could also work well with the lightsaber combat RAW. A possible alternate form would be to have the character roll his Sokan skill dice at the beginning of the duel to analyze the terrain, which would dictate the size of his available bonus dice pool.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Azai]

I thought about Sokan for a while, but in the end I decided not to use it.

I wanted to focus on the official seven forms (And also Jar'Kar) and get those done before I started to do anything else. I eventually do want to go to the other ideas and styles, but since I am having trouble making the original forms feel 'truly' unique I am waiting.

And the expert/master levels I really like, though I do want to figure them out a little more. Because they don't just add bonuses but they reduce the penalties of the style. At first when you reached master level there was no more penalties, but then I thought it will eventually just make one style that is always better then the others. So I went with the reduce, but not completely remove. Plus by putting master level around 12D above, it is hard to hike up there.

And then at first I did put prerequisites of Shii-Cho, and other styles for certain forms. But the reason I took them away is in Rise of the Empire and Rebellion Era I wanted my players to be able to learn a certain form from whatever teacher they find. (I randomly have teachers and Order 66 survivors placed in the galaxy) and not have to know the others.

For example Karate is, for the most part, inspired from Kung Fu and Chinese Martial arts. But if I went and learned from a karate teacher, I wouldn't have to know Kenpo or Kung Fu. Because despite being based off another style it has become its own style, that is independent of the previous. Thus it can be taught without knowledge of the previous style. Otherwise it would just be considered advanced moves, or techniques, of Kung Fu.

The idea I am playing around with is having at least 4D-6D in lightsaber before you can take a style. Or at least before you can begin to learn a form. But because I want to avoid people not taking forms, I made a rule where if you don't use a form when facing someone who -does- use a form you can only roll half your lightsaber dice. (Not sure yet what to do bout lightsaber combat). Thus allows those without teachers to fair okay against blaster wielders, and other non FS, but really encourages someone to find a teacher to learn incase they have to face another force user. (Which I will make happen)

I will take out the DSP for Vaapad and Juyo though. (I can't remember if I did put it in Juyo, or just Vaapad) because you prove a point. You can have some dark emotions inside you without being 'bad' at one point. Though I will keep that DSP earned within the form is doubled. Sticking with the idea that it borders on the edge of light and dark.

[hazardchris]

I came up with a system used Lightsaber styles as Advanced Skills based on the lightsaber forms PDF that has been floating around for forever. What essentially happened was that the character several static effects whenever they were using that style of fighting. Then, each style had a certain number of maneuvers that would add a certain difficulty to the roll.

We used it in a high-powered campaign and the results were very, very positive. My goals with it were to give Lightsaber combat some variety while not adding in a bunch of extra rules. I also printed out reference cards for their styles to help facilitate the rules lawyering.

EDIT: Ah-ha! I knew I posted my rules somewhere.
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"Oh no, that's just something we used to tell people."

Let me make you a picture!

[CRMcNeill]