| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:25 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
garhkal,
I think you are onto something there. Especially when a PCs life is on the line. Once you let "Jack" bend the rules a little in a trouble spot, then "Bill" is going to want (and probably, in all fairness deserve) the same flexibility when he is in a similar situation. Eventually, this either leads to the "flexibility" turning into a house rule, or the GM getting a reputation for playing favorites. That's why I'd rather be proactive and figure out a solution for problems before they come up rather than "winning it" and then having to deal with the repercussions.
Ankhanu,
No, I don7t think we are too far apart on this. I do see you point about the dangers of over complicating things too. I think a lot of the problems with the Force in the RPG can be fixed by through simplification of some of the rules, too. Not just by adding.
I also think part of the difficulty lies in how 2nd edition turned using the Force into a collection of powers that needed to be activated. Basically this made running it much easier to run, especially in it's day when rule systems tried to have rules to cover all situations, but also took some of the mystery and flexibility out of the Force. By the book, Control, Sense, and Alter are now useless without a power to raise. By the source material, and in 1st Edition, Sense was useful in it's own right. Just allowing the Force skills to be used themselves in some way could fix some things. FOr instance, if Jedi could use Sense in place of Perception to notice things we wouldn't need a "Danger Sense" power.
I think a lot of the problems in correlating the rules with the films are due to 2nd edition adding too much structure to the flow of the game, and a lot of things would match up better with just by using one of the other intitiave/sequencing systems that already exist for d6. Either the old haste rules or adapting the quickdraw rules would probably eliminate most of the discrepancies.
As for duels, I am thinking of limiting the extra damage dice that Jedi get to the amount they beat the defense roll by. This would not be overly complicated, and still allow Jedi to slice through hoards of battle droids (who have no defense other than the base defense) and yet still get only nicks and wounds when fighting in a duel (the Jedi would now need to beat the foe's parry by a significant amount to do significant injury). |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
MA-3PO
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Olathe, Kansas
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 11:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | As for duels, I am thinking of limiting the extra damage dice that Jedi get to the amount they beat the defense roll by. This would not be overly complicated, and still allow Jedi to slice through hoards of battle droids (who have no defense other than the base defense) and yet still get only nicks and wounds when fighting in a duel (the Jedi would now need to beat the foe's parry by a significant amount to do significant injury). |
This sounds interesting. A little bit like the D6 Legend rules I'm working with that allow you to increase the damage based on how much you beat their defense by.
Another thing along these lines that I'm working with is Peter S's Dueling Blades rules. Are you familiar with these? As they are I think they are too simple but I would like to expand on this concept somehow. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 4:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | garhkal,
I think you are onto something there. Especially when a PCs life is on the line. Once you let "Jack" bend the rules a little in a trouble spot, then "Bill" is going to want (and probably, in all fairness deserve) the same flexibility when he is in a similar situation. Eventually, this either leads to the "flexibility" turning into a house rule, or the GM getting a reputation for playing favorites. That's why I'd rather be proactive and figure out a solution for problems before they come up rather than "winning it" and then having to deal with the repercussions.
|
Thanks. But you also get into the situation where when it is not a cinematic requirement but they want to do it anyway they complain you won't allow it.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MA-3PO wrote: |
This sounds interesting. A little bit like the D6 Legend rules I'm working with that allow you to increase the damage based on how much you beat their defense by. |
Yeah. Similar. If I were running Legend I'd just use the normal system for lightsaber damage, since it factors skill over into damage anyway. Perhaps average Control and Sense for the die bonus to reflect both.
| Quote: |
Another thing along these lines that I'm working with is Peter S's Dueling Blades rules. Are you familiar with these? As they are I think they are too simple but I would like to expand on this concept somehow. |
I'm familiar with them, and agree with your assessment. It all depends on just how far you want to go with it. I actually considered using the Sanguine Edition of Usagi Yojimo as the rules for a Star Wars campaign, because it handles dueling so well. In Usagi, two guys with Blades skill at the same rating can have entirely different fighting styles depending on what gits (techniques/feats) they have learned. Putting certain gifts together leads to some powerful combos. Some gifts are only useful if the opponent does certain things, so fights actually have people thinking about just how the opponent fights. As much of Lightsaber dueling is drawn from the Samurai genre, a lot of the Star Wars moves are in the Usagi system. Unfortunately, the system would have been over the head of most of the players in my current group.
An Idea I'm working on now is the possibility of having certain dueling maneuvers "cost" dice. So lightsaber duels will have a sort of "skill attrition" going on. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 2:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: |
Thanks. But you also get into the situation where when it is not a cinematic requirement but they want to do it anyway they complain you won't allow it. |
Yup. Of course if something is possibly, but difficult, or has consequences if it fails, players are less likely to overuse it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | An Idea I'm working on now is the possibility of having certain dueling maneuvers "cost" dice. So lightsaber duels will have a sort of "skill attrition" going on. |
That sounds promising. You must elaborate.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jmanski wrote: | | Quote: | | An Idea I'm working on now is the possibility of having certain dueling maneuvers "cost" dice. So lightsaber duels will have a sort of "skill attrition" going on. |
That sounds promising. You must elaborate. |
Okay,
My idea is that once Jedi are dueling with Lightsaber combat up, they are all rolling quite a few dice, so assigning difficulties to maneuvers and techniques like with the martial arts system doesn't mean much in game terms. Just hitting someone with a lightsaber is a difficult task anyway.
My idea, would be to allow a character to skip some rolls by "spending" skill dice. For example, if a character wanted to perform a feint or disarm or some such, he could just spend dice, without having to make a roll. His opponent is then forced to spend dice to prevent the effect, or might conserve the dice and make some sort of skill roll (as an action) instead. The trade would be between automatic success or what should be a fair to low percentage die roll.
Ideally, duelists would use up some of their dice for the round with swordplay, and when someone runs out of dice, they present an "opening" to be attacked. The "winner" can then either go for an attack, a maneuver, or "carry over" his dice advantage to the next turn in hopes of setting up for a better attack next turn. Additionally, things like retreating might factor into things. Something like giving ground might give an extra die to a defense against certain maneuvers, so a character who gives ground would get extra dice for defense.
Different Lightsaber Forms could have difference die cost for certain maneuvers. For example Form I might get a break on disarm maneuvers, while Form II might get a break defending against such attacks.
That's the idea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That sounds interesting. I would be cautious with the bonus next turn (perhaps find a way to limit the bonus), but it sounds like a good way to spice up combat.
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That does have potential. It would require some fine tuning to keep it nice and simple, but it's an interesting idea. I do hold the same reservation jmanski has though.
_________________
Hotaru no Hishou; a messageboard about games, friends and nothing at all.
Donate to Ankhanu Press |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, you guys are more postive about it than I am.
As for the "carryover bonus", I am planning on it being small. IF it takes a certain number to dice to do things, then this could be the "left over" dice for when a character doesn't have enough dice left to do anything.
Or maybe that can be how the Jedi get damage dice in duels. That way the carry over wouldn't be so bad. Characters would have to duel for a few rounds in order for someone to get their full damage potential.
Thus could lead to characters having to decide between saving up for a devastating attack or take advantage of an opportunity to do a quick hit that only does 2 or 3D damage, but might still wound a foe. And since a successful attack is really a combination, we could limit how many damage dice can be accumulated with one skill roll. Maybe retreating eats away at the foes accumulated damage dice?
BTW, Thanks! That last paragraph came to me after seeing your posts. Always good to get feedback for an idea. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MA-3PO
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 236
Location: Olathe, Kansas
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | Ideally, duelists would use up some of their dice for the round with swordplay, and when someone runs out of dice, they present an "opening" to be attacked. |
For some reason this one sentence reminds me of the iaijutsu dueling rules in L5R. I'll go take a look at those again to see if there is anything we can use here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| MA-3PO wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Ideally, duelists would use up some of their dice for the round with swordplay, and when someone runs out of dice, they present an "opening" to be attacked. |
For some reason this one sentence reminds me of the iaijutsu dueling rules in L5R. I'll go take a look at those again to see if there is anything we can use here. |
Focus...  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is definitely some potential to these rules. It might get a little complicated but I think it has the potential to being an exciting simulation of exactly the sorts of battles we see in the star wars films. I especially like the thing about a gradual build up to maximum damage potential. I have to admit to being a little confounded as to how I would put this idea into play however so I hope you'll let us see whatever rules you eventually come up with so we can pilfer... I mean... assess them  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: |
My idea is that once Jedi are dueling with Lightsaber combat up, they are all rolling quite a few dice, so assigning difficulties to maneuvers and techniques like with the martial arts system doesn't mean much in game terms. Just hitting someone with a lightsaber is a difficult task anyway.
My idea, would be to allow a character to skip some rolls by "spending" skill dice. For example, if a character wanted to perform a feint or disarm or some such, he could just spend dice, without having to make a roll. His opponent is then forced to spend dice to prevent the effect, or might conserve the dice and make some sort of skill roll (as an action) instead. The trade would be between automatic success or what should be a fair to low percentage die roll.
Ideally, duelists would use up some of their dice for the round with swordplay, and when someone runs out of dice, they present an "opening" to be attacked. The "winner" can then either go for an attack, a maneuver, or "carry over" his dice advantage to the next turn in hopes of setting up for a better attack next turn. Additionally, things like retreating might factor into things. Something like giving ground might give an extra die to a defense against certain maneuvers, so a character who gives ground would get extra dice for defense.
Different Lightsaber Forms could have difference die cost for certain maneuvers. For example Form I might get a break on disarm maneuvers, while Form II might get a break defending against such attacks.
That's the idea. |
This is really interesting. This might be something to revisit when we're trying to work out lightsaber forms while converting the Jedi Training manual. make sure you remind us of this when we're doing that section of the book.
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I like the idea also, I've been trying to figure out a way to make my lightsaber duels more cinematic also, instead of it boiling down to players just rolling buckets of dice until one gets hit and is insta-dead. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
