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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:52 pm Post subject: Enhance attribute? how do you go about it? |
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One thing i have been unable to make sense of with this force power, is do you select what you are trying to go for and roll (eg i want +2d so i need a diff roll), OR do you just roll and see what you get?
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jmanski
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Something I had always wondered as well. What if I want +1d for 3 rounds but roll really high?
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I always let people roll and then they could choose either the result they rolled or something from lower down on the table if they wanted. |
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vong
Jedi
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 6699
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | | I always let people roll and then they could choose either the result they rolled or something from lower down on the table if they wanted. |
i do the same thing. When doing a skill roll like that the roll you achieve is the MAXIMUM you can do. if you choose to lower it, I allow that (same for any skill roll - blaster included)
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:52 am Post subject: |
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You could have the player roll twice?
Once for the bonus and once for the duration. (This wouldn't incur any multi-action penalties.)
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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But do they still select a bonus to try for and make the roll, or just roll and see what they get?
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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I believe t states that you roll and then can take any bonus result up to what you roll. So you can take less for more.
When I House Rule it, I don't apply a MAP to the enhanced attribute from the Power. Otherwise a character would be usually better off just "preparing". |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I believe t states that you roll and then can take any bonus result up to what you roll. So you can take less for more.
When I House Rule it, I don't apply a MAP to the enhanced attribute from the Power. Otherwise a character would be usually better off just "preparing". |
Yeah, that never made much sense, either... I'm using an action and taking a -1D MAP to gain a +1D benefit? Ok, maybe it's for 3 rounds, but that's still pretty weak.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | I believe t states that you roll and then can take any bonus result up to what you roll. So you can take less for more.
When I House Rule it, I don't apply a MAP to the enhanced attribute from the Power. Otherwise a character would be usually better off just "preparing". |
Yeah, that never made much sense, either... I'm using an action and taking a -1D MAP to gain a +1D benefit? Ok, maybe it's for 3 rounds, but that's still pretty weak. |
"Ah, now you shall learn the true nature of the Force. My young apprentice." 
But that is one reason why I want to tweak the Force Rules a little. Basically apply the same logic that control pain uses to any other Force use. For instance, having Lightsaber Combat not apply -2 MAPs to lightsaber skill, but to everything else, magnify senses doesn't apply a MAP to Perception and so on.
Otherwise some f the results can be painfully comical, especially since Jedi tend to have lower stats to begin with. I discovered that the hard way. |
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Lostboy
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Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:12 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Basically apply the same logic that control pain uses to any other Force use. For instance, having Lightsaber Combat not apply -2 MAPs to lightsaber skill |
Are you kidding, considering that jedi get to add sense to their light saber roles there rolls would be even more obscene with out MAPs. |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | But that is one reason why I want to tweak the Force Rules a little. Basically apply the same logic that control pain uses to any other Force use. For instance, having Lightsaber Combat not apply -2 MAPs to lightsaber skill, but to everything else, magnify senses doesn't apply a MAP to Perception and so on. |
We did something very similar but we also slashed all the bonuses across the board. As it stands lightsaber combat is completely unbalanced. Do this without changing it in other ways too and you basically give a decent Jedi +4D to attack and parry for no downside at all. |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | | As it stands lightsaber combat is completely unbalanced. |
Tweaking a power here and there is fine. It's unqualified statements like the above that makes me stop people and raise the "prove it" flag.
Show me how it's "unbalanced." I would like to see some facts... real examples.
I showed some real numbers in the other thread and thought I demonstrated that LS Combat isn't quite as "unbalanced" as everyone thinks it is.
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I showed some real numbers in the other thread and thought I demonstrated that LS Combat isn't quite as "unbalanced" as everyone thinks it is. |
I wanted to say something like: "your numbers clearly proved my point" but that's not the case obviously. It all comes down to what you feel is fair. Control and Sense, even without access to lightsaber combat, would still be some of the best skills in the game. They are massively versatile and provide some quite potent abilities for shaping the game.
So for example: imagine a character with 4D control and 5D sense with a selection of healing and meditative powers intended to be a Jedi consular type (to use a stereotype from the computer games). He works along side a character whose primary duty in the game is as a body guard and to fight threats the diplomat cannot deal with. He has 7D in blasters, 6D in dodge, a smattering of 5D among other attack skills. They are generally about equivalent and both players feel useful and worthwhile.
Then one day the Consular character learns lightsaber combat. I can't remember if he needs 5 or 10 character points to learn it from the nice Jedi character he just met but its one or the other. 10 character points would buy the soldier-type a +1 pip in his primary skill.
The Jedi just got a +3D equivalent to his skill for the same price. With a 4D+1 lightsaber skill, he's now just as good as the soldier-type and he has done absolutely nothing for this. He's had to pay nothing. There is no downside. He just suddenly and completely unreasonably matches the other character in his principle strength (an ability which cost him dearly in character points to acquire). Not only that but the Jedi now has an ability that quite adequately replicates the dodge skill that the soldier purchased as well.
I'm sure this example will not convince you. It is why I find lightsaber combat unreasonable. Being able to grant a +2D or +3D bonus should cost you something, though. And, of course, now the situation is only going to get worse with every pip the Jedi buys. Oh, and the Jedi also has more damage than the soldier.
Seriously, mate. We are really going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm sitting here thinking to myself "how can someone who has played the game as much as you obviously have not get this - the evidence is clear to see". You are obviously sitting there thinking much the same (or some equivalent). Constantly asking me to prove what I think you've already proven with your own spreadsheet really isn't going to help.  |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | So for example: imagine a character with 4D control and 5D sense with a selection of healing and meditative powers intended to be a Jedi consular type (to use a stereotype from the computer games). He works along side a character whose primary duty in the game is as a body guard and to fight threats the diplomat cannot deal with. He has 7D in blasters, 6D in dodge, a smattering of 5D among other attack skills. They are generally about equivalent and both players feel useful and worthwhile.
Then one day the Consular character learns lightsaber combat. I can't remember if he needs 5 or 10 character points to learn it from the nice Jedi character he just met but its one or the other. 10 character points would buy the soldier-type a +1 pip in his primary skill.
The Jedi just got a +3D equivalent to his skill for the same price. With a 4D+1 lightsaber skill, he's now just as good as the soldier-type and he has done absolutely nothing for this. He's had to pay nothing. There is no downside. He just suddenly and completely unreasonably matches the other character in his principle strength (an ability which cost him dearly in character points to acquire). Not only that but the Jedi now has an ability that quite adequately replicates the dodge skill that the soldier purchased as well.
I'm sure this example will not convince you. It is why I find lightsaber combat unreasonable. Being able to grant a +2D or +3D bonus should cost you something, though. And, of course, now the situation is only going to get worse with every pip the Jedi buys. Oh, and the Jedi also has more damage than the soldier.
Seriously, mate. We are really going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm sitting here thinking to myself "how can someone who has played the game as much as you obviously have not get this - the evidence is clear to see". You are obviously sitting there thinking much the same (or some equivalent). Constantly asking me to prove what I think you've already proven with your own spreadsheet really isn't going to help. |
The bodyguard has 7D blasters? That's only 2-3D above his starting skill. The Jedi has 5D Sense. 4D above his base and has spent double the CPs to improve it. Oh, and he has a Jedi Code which doesn't allow him to kill indiscriminantly.
The force power is free assuming he has a Control and a Sense "slot" available.
And I do agree that Jedi are powerful (They are supposed to be.) But there are ways GMs can (and should) mitigate that power. "With great power, comes great responsibility."
"Fixing" and "balancing" the rules does not fix irresponsibility.
All the game rules in the world can't fix stupid or irresponsible GMs.
*shrug* Agreeing to disagree is fine, but that won't stop me from trying to convince you that you don't need to waste your time with a complete system overhaul.
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Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Wow. Someone actually said "let's agree to disagree" in an eloquent manner!
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