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Rerun941
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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 Posted: Sat Mar 28, 2009 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | I'm really not sure we are talking about the same thing at all. I understand Jedi philosophy (what there is of it). I don't know what to say to make you understand my issue with the system. I'm not sure I even understand your issues with what I've suggested, so, however much I enjoy a good argument, I'm just going to go quiet now.  enjoy the game. |
Here's my issue with the changes people keep proposing to "fix" Jedi:
In every incarnation in the movies a Bith crimelord *IS* a trivial incovenience to a Jedi Knight. The only thing that stops the Jedi from cutting one in two is the Jedi Code.
You want to "balance" the Jedi against non-Jedi, yet the Jedi are (by definition) SUPPOSED to be more powerful than non-Jedi. So basically in my eyes all your rules are doing is emasculating the Jedi.
If Jedi are not powerful, then you're not playing Star Wars.
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You want to "balance" the Jedi against non-Jedi, yet the Jedi are (by definition) SUPPOSED to be more powerful than non-Jedi. So basically in my eyes all your rules are doing is emasculating the Jedi. |
No. The Jedi - as in Yoda, or Master Windu - is more powerful than the crimelord. I do not want to balance Yoda and some crime lord down the road. I want to balance the Force and the non-Force. Not the Jedi and the non-Jedi. They are different things.
If you look at the rules I've written - which admittedly I only have an old version of them up on the computer but still, the basic idea is there - you will see that the Force allows an individual to be extraordinarily powerful. I happen to think that the Force should be capable of just about anything but it takes time, it takes character points and it takes a trainer to get there.
WEG rules - as atgxtg said - provide no middle ground. You start off rubbish and than at about 4D to 6D depending you suddenly become unstoppable. There is no gradual period of development.
The Jedi council, Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan in the first movie - these characters have hundreds of character points.
I want a system where if I put a non-Jedi character up against a Jedi character with the same number of character points (approximately) the Jedi is not going to either die because he can't get Lightsaber Combat up or wipe the non-Jedi out in a round because he can. Those are the only two situations that WEG's rules can replicate. In fact, let me be more specific, I want to create a situation where - in any particular field - being a Force User does not overwhelm the game system.
So in a situation where a character that has trained using a sword but is not a Force Sensitive enters into an agreed duel with a character that is a Force Sensitive with appropriately the same number of character points and a similar focus (sword combat - not even a lightsaber) the two can have a conflict which lasts for several rounds and where the outcome is not a foregone conclusion. I also think that if the first character is so focused that the character points have purchased only melee combat than the second should also be similarly focused in regard to the Force - sword combat enhancement is most of what he can do when it comes to using the Force.
Of course, there are many arenas in which the Jedi are able to do things that no one else can do - this is the fun area of playing a Jedi. "I don't get into combat because I follow the code" or "because I use the Force to avoid it" and so on. I want more flexibility, more choice, more powers with unusual effects - I want Jedi to be powerful and fun but I don't want the fact that "I'm Force Sensitive" to be the deciding factor in conflict, I want "I'm a Jedi Master and your some guy from Tantooine" to be the deciding factor. I want Fett to be a challenge, I want shapeshifting aliens who can fool Jedi, I want mundane pilots who are better than their Jedi equivalent (in that skill), people who are better in combat because they are war veterans and the Jedi is a diplomat who only has Lightsaber combat for emergencies...
At a certain point, and its not that many character points if you have a trainer, all of the above become impossible and before that point comes: all the Jedi characters are struggling to stay alive.
Grimace said:
| Quote: | | So basically what you're saying is that you want it so there's no "weak" aspects of being a Jedi, and that you don't want Jedi to be too powerful either? |
No what both I and atgxtg have said is that we want a period where Force Sensitive characters are "weak", a period where they are "strong" and a broad nice road between the two positions which we can travel and enjoy in the game. Not I'm weak. Oh, I can get both Lightsaber combat up and enhance attribtue at the same time, "Now I'm invincible!"
As for simulating the prequel films: I want Jedi to be able to do the things in those films but I don't feel the need to make it easy. All the characters in the films are very powerful already. Changing the system to make it easier for a Jedi character to get to the position of being able to do the cinematic things we see in the films earlier would only make the situation worse.
Wow, I think this might be my longest post ever. |
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: |
Grimace said:
| Quote: | | So basically what you're saying is that you want it so there's no "weak" aspects of being a Jedi, and that you don't want Jedi to be too powerful either? |
No what both I and atgxtg have said is that we want a period where Force Sensitive characters are "weak", a period where they are "strong" and a broad nice road between the two positions which we can travel and enjoy in the game. Not I'm weak. Oh, I can get both Lightsaber combat up and enhance attribtue at the same time, "Now I'm invincible!"
As for simulating the prequel films: I want Jedi to be able to do the things in those films but I don't feel the need to make it easy. All the characters in the films are very powerful already. Changing the system to make it easier for a Jedi character to get to the position of being able to do the cinematic things we see in the films earlier would only make the situation worse.
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You somewhat did it in your above post, but at the same time I can look at the examples you've got and truthfully say "I've done that." It only takes a good GM to allow for those non-Force users to provide an adequate challenge to a Force using character...even a Jedi.
But since GMing is a different subject altogether, I'll just ask you this.
Please provide me with some examples of what you desire, ranging from the "worthless" Force user in the beginning, the "middle of the road" Force user as they grow in power, and the "powerful" Force user.
I can get that a beginning Force user is going to have a hard time doing anything with the Force...using 1D or 2D to try to activate things. From the read of it, you don't seem to have a problem with that. If I'm wrong on this assumption, please correct me.
Now once the Force user gets to 3D or 4D, they should obviously have a better chance of getting the various Force powers going. That's just the way the dice mechanic works. The more dice you have, the better chance you have of getting the numbers that you couldn't reach with 1D or 2D. Please provide me with examples so I can see how this makes them continually "worthless" and not the "middle of the road" character that you're talking about.
Then you say when they reach 5D or 6D, they're nigh unstoppable and no one that's not a Force User can compete against them. Again, please provide examples to demonstrate this, as I have not seen this problem and I have run game with Jedi at this point.
I'm genuinely curious and would like to help out, but every time I hear people complain about the Force, I always hear the same stuff: "It's just broken. They're too weak or too powerful." Those arguments don't help me come up with valid things to fix. |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, to avoid a big waste of time, I'll start at the bottom of your post and work my way up.
| Quote: | | I'm genuinely curious and would like to help out, but every time I hear people complain about the Force, I always hear the same stuff: "It's just broken. They're too weak or too powerful." Those arguments don't help me come up with valid things to fix. |
My initial comment was addressed at the idea that changing the rules was something you need not do because it was matter of how you run Jedi. I personally feel that you cannot run Jedi as you should in certain Eras especially because the system hinders you in this regard (I try to justify that in a second). I suppose I felt the need to contradict the comment because my group and I have spent a long time re-writing the rules and quite frankly: it does work better with a few tweaks - a lot better. I was not actually asking for help with the Force rules
I had very specific issues with how the Force worked in d6 but I also felt that just as a general rule it could be better: more consistent, faster, more intuitive and also more free to demonstrate all the possibilities found in the books, comics and films. As for actually doing this, I think that after many years of play testing and trial and error we've succeeded in creating a system which is everything we personally want. I'm sure it won't be right for everyone but it works for us.
| Quote: | | Now once the Force user gets to 3D or 4D, they should obviously have a better chance of getting the various Force powers going. That's just the way the dice mechanic works. The more dice you have, the better chance you have of getting the numbers that you couldn't reach with 1D or 2D. Please provide me with examples so I can see how this makes them continually "worthless" and not the "middle of the road" character that you're talking about. |
Before I attempt to justify any of these let me just say that everyone's game is different obviously and I've played games where there was absolutely no problem with the Force - none at all. Sometimes this was because there was no Jedi but it also worked in any game where the Jedi never exceeded 5D in any Force Skill and didn't concentrate on the Force as his primary means of improving his character.
I was fortunate enough to play with one individual who I can honestly say hadn't a munkin bone in his body and who had a profound love of the whole idea of Jedi and when he played one it was exactly as it should be: Rerun941 - you would have been proud.
But I have also played in Jedi-only games in the Knights of the Old Republic Era and in one game which has played - on and off - for nearly fifteen years and in that time the Jedi characters haven't been able to avoid becoming quite frankly too powerful for the system to handle. Indeed, with enough character points, it becomes obvious that the system as a whole begins to break down no matter what type of character you are playing.
The major problem with the Force is not whether you will get a power up or not its the number of powers that you have access to increases as well as your chance to activate them. The progression is not linear but rather geometric - at low dice codes nothing works and at high dice codes you can put up combat sense, lightsaber combat and enhanced attribute all in the same combat and if Force Points begin to come into play you might even manage it in the same round. Indeed, with danger sense, it might not even take that long.
You would be right to say that with the right power choices 3D to 4D in control and sense is probably a reasonable smooth patch where you can feel like you've mastered some Jedi stuff but are not yet crashing everyone else's part but it doesn't last very long.
| Quote: | | I can get that a beginning Force user is going to have a hard time doing anything with the Force...using 1D or 2D to try to activate things. From the read of it, you don't seem to have a problem with that. If I'm wrong on this assumption, please correct me. |
Quite right. I have no problem with starting rubbish. When I get to play (which is not often now I think about it) I actual love this period more than any other. Its fun trying to get the little stuff to work for you and its amazing how Jedi-like a little life detection can make you feel.
Now, I'm not sure what specific examples I can provide: at low levels lightsaber should be as useful as everyone else's combat (which generally they are), at medium levels I should not be able to put up too many powers which stack (at least not without a cost) and at higher levels I should not exceed other character's abilities in the areas where they have spent months of game time putting their well earned character points.
For me: lightsaber combat, enhance attribute and especially combat sense all had to go out the window almost immediately as written. They stack - which becomes horrendously overpowered - and combat sense is just too applicable for too little difficulty.
I suppose its that moderate difficulty thing. The moment that becomes a reasonably reliably outcome of your rolls, a lot of powers come on line simultaneously.
I'm not sure I've answered your questions at all usefully but I tried - I tend to ramble when I try to be coherent on these things and the truth is it breaks down into specifical examples - many of which I haven't had to deal with in over a year or more because we fixed them. |
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jmanski
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | For me: lightsaber combat, enhance attribute and especially combat sense all had to go out the window almost immediately as written. They stack - which becomes horrendously overpowered - and combat sense is just too applicable for too little difficulty.
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Just a thought, but instead of rewriting the rules completely, why not just disallow using LS combat with Enhance Attribute and Combat Sense.
Shouldn't Concentrate be the only thing that can aid a Force skill? If not, make it that way.
I think a lot of the "overpowered Jedi" problems comes with Gamemastering. IMHO, if a Jedi has to have the same basic skills as any other PC (minus Blaster), then the Jedi will be a weaker character than the others. I think the rules make it fair to play a Jedi, be viable, and still be powerful.
If Jedi only increase force skills and Lightsaber, then yes, they will become overpowered. If they must also have sneak, starfighter piloting, starfighter gunnery, starfighter repair, etc they will not be as powerful.
Just my 2 centicreds.
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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I think the "fix" for lightsaber combat is to downgrade it a bit to make the bonuses less dramtic, and scale back the damages to reflect the differences between 1st edition and 2nd edition. That would give Jedi PC a more gradual development and still make Jedi like Yoda, Mace Windu, and Obi-wan Kenobi still very fomidable characters able to do pretty much the same things they do now.
If we reduce the bonuses from Lightsaber Combat to +1 per per D instead of the full Sense and Control Codes, and raise the Lightsaber's base damage to 6D, Jedi Padawan now become viable characters.
Since the bonus is lower , we could lower the difficulty to use the power too, so that beginning character can actually deflect blaster bolts, like the younglings can do in the films.
With this a Jedi with 6D in Lightsaber and his Force powers (COntrol, Sense) would still be 9D skill and 10D damage. Still quite good. While a Jedi master with 12D lightsaber and Force Powers would have 16D skill and do 9D damage. Not as powerful as the 24D/17D he has under the current rules, but still more than enough to wipe out a Bith crime lord or even Jabba the Hutt. |
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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With something like the Force Attribute system I outlined above (back a couple pages now), the Lightsaber Combat issue is reduced somewhat. Without having Control or Sense, but rather just a Lightsaber Combat Force skill, the Jedi would have to divide their dice between following their opponent and being more precise (increased damage) or redirecting an attack.
For example, let's say our Jedi has Lightsaber 6D, Force at 3D and Lightsaber Combat at... 6D. Once Lightsaber Combat is active, they then have 6D to split between attack, parry (and redirection) and damage.
Let's say they want to make an attack and parry a blaster bolt. Their opponent is a fairly good shot with a blaster, so there is concern about them getting through the defense. They might choose to allocate 2D to their attack, 3D to parry and 1D to damage. With a -1D MAP for doing two actions (could be -2D if you count LSC as an action), the attack would be made at 7D, causing 6D damage if it hits, and the parry would be done at 8D.
If the Jedi wanted to not only parry, but redirect the blaster bolt, they would incur another MAP, and have to split their LSC dice between attack, defense, extra damage and aiming the blaster bolt, perhaps 1D attack, 1D damage, 2D parry, 2D redirect.
Obviously, as a Jedi becomes more powerful, or the less they try to do at once, the better they'll be at controlling the flow of the Force through their bodies and senses, becoming better able to anticipate their opponents and use the weapon with greater efficiency/precision.
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | With something like the Force Attribute system I outlined above (back a couple pages now), the Lightsaber Combat issue is reduced somewhat. Without having Control or Sense, but rather just a Lightsaber Combat Force skill, the Jedi would have to divide their dice between following their opponent and being more precise (increased damage) or redirecting an attack. |
I actually use a Force attribute system. We moved to the idea of a Force attribute very early on actually as it made sense to most of us that the Force should be an attribute. At first we made most individual power separate skills but this quickly became too limiting and we realized that it didn't really solve anything and kind of detracted from the Control, Sense and Alter thing which we all had kind of liked the feel of.
We tried it with the Control, Sense and Alter skill off the Force attribute but that really didn't work.
We came to the system we use now next. We broke down the control, sense and alter skills each into separate skills on a kind of grid. Across the top you have control, sense and alter and down the side you have five basic areas: mind, body, space and time, the Force proper, energy and the physical realm
Stealing a few skills and trying out a few different combinations (and adding some extra control skills to fill in the holes) and we ended up the current set of:
| Quote: | Affect Mind
Skill Group: Alter
Affect Mind is the Alter Skill that governs the minds of other creatures (but not the Jedi’s own). |
| Quote: | Concentration
Skill Group: Control, Synergy
By focusing on the task at hand the Jedi with this skill can ward out distractions and assimilate a grossly increased amount of information. The skill can allow you to coordinate wildly divergent information into a cohesive whole, allowing you to make almost intuitive leaps of inspiration in even the most complicated or dangerous situations.
The Jedi can use this skill to decrease the amount of time it would normally take to perform a complicated action (such as calculate the coordinates for an Astrogation jump) or to assimilate information from several different sources simultaneously (listen to a conversation on the phone while simultaneously searching the holo-net for information on someone else).
Alternatively, in the midst of combat the skill can be used in concert with search, perception or sense skills to gather the vital information required to gain an advantage between attacks and without losing his stride. The difficulty in this case is dependent on the complexity of the endeavor and the number of skills being affected. |
| Quote: | Control Mind
Skill Group: Control
This skill allows you to reach deep into your own thoughts and to control what you find there. The skill can be used to overcome inherent fears, to dull your sense of pain or to relive or even remove memories that you no longer desire. Combined with its Alter equivalent affect mind the skill can induce similar effects in others.
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| Quote: | Create/Dissipate Energy
Skill Group: Alter
This skill allows the Jedi to control, generate and manipulate the energies in his environment. It is generally easier to dissipate energies. |
| Quote: | Enhance Senses
Skill Group: Sense
Enhance Senses allows the Jedi using it to draw upon mundane sensory information provided by the Force. He can see better, smell better or feel things at a distance (a form of telekinetic sense). He can even draw upon sensory information normally alien to his own mundane senses.
This skill can provide any sensory impression that mundane equipment could provide; i.e. the ability to sense infra-red, ultraviolet radiation or to hear radio comms flickering back and forth through the air (although deciphering them would probably require Concentration as well).
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| Quote: | Emptiness/Rage
Skill Group: Control, Synergy
Emptiness/Rage represents the Jedi’s skill at managing and drawing out the fullest potential of his own Force-based energies; those energies needed to empower his own abilities and special talents.
Manage Force Points. The skill is used to manage Force Points and can be used to draw on sources – both light and dark – within the Jedi and those he establishes contact with through the Force.
Empower Force. Finally, the skill is required when drawing especially deep into the Jedi’s own power. Effects that exceed the normal scale of Force power (e.g. summoning Force storms) require the Jedi to draw especially deeply on the Force. The Gamemaster can add this requirement to any effect that he feels is especially draining or powerful. |
| Quote: | Farseeing
Skill Group: Sense
You can use the Farseeing skill to send your perceptions off to some distant place or time, to relive past experiences or to peer through the walls of the massive space craft shuttling you through the vacuum of space. The skill is powerful but it lacks control. You can open yourself to the sensory impressions of a specific location or to a whole period of time but in doing so you are flooded with sensory information you will likely be unable to process. In order to process it properly you therefore need the concentration skill. |
| Quote: | Force Defence
Skill Group: Control, Reaction
This skill is the principal line of defence that a Jedi can employ against any and all Force-based attacks. The skill is a reaction skill and allows the Jedi to safely moderate any Forced based assault. Attacks that are physical in nature and do not directly target the Jedi cannot be resisted using this skill. |
| Quote: | Force Stealth
Skill Group: Control, Reaction, Synergy
This skill is the principal line of defense that a Jedi can use to avoid detection by sense based Force effects. This skill is used instead of Force Defense wherever the Jedi is attempting to avoid detecting by a Force power. |
| Quote: | Healing
Skill Group: Control
This skill allows the Jedi to control the complex processes of his own body. He can accelerate his own healing or induce cancerous tumors throughout his flesh (though it remains to be seen why any Jedi would want to do such a thing). The skill is especially useful because though it differs from medicine it can overcome medical problems that even medical technology has yet to cure. |
| Quote: | Injure / Heal Another
Skill Group: Alter
This skill allows the Jedi to establish contact with the physical and physiological nature of another creature. Once such contact is established the Jedi can extend his own mastery of his flesh (as represented through the healing skills, for example) into the other body.
On its own this skill can produce only the broadest effects with no subtlety at all. By exposing the holistic nature of his opponents to his own terrible rage and anger a dark Jedi can inflict grievous injury on his opponents without the need to use any other skills but this lacks precision.
Unless used in concert with sense skills Injure / Heal Another almost always requires physical contact with the subject. It’s difficulty is usually adjusted for relationship and (where appropriate) proximity. It can be resisted with a force defense or stamina roll. |
| Quote: | Sense Force
Skill Group: Sense
The Force is bound to the living spiritual natures of all living creatures; it binds all living things from the simplest to the most sophisticated and powerful. This skill allows the Jedi to sense that Force itself and its residual energies in living creatures directly. This is a property of the universe that no mundane creature or machine can sense and probably the purest and most basic of all Force skills. After all, before a Jedi is a Jedi, he is a Force sensitive. |
| Quote: | Telekinesis
Skill Group: Alter
Telekinesis is the power to move objects through the direct application of the Force. It allows you to lift and move objects but has very little precision (for that you need the Precision control skill as well). The base difficulty to use Telekinesis is easy, modified by proximity, the mass of the object and the number of object. |
| Quote: | Telepathy
Skill Group: Sense
The Force is entwined with the thoughts and life force of every creature in existence. This skill allows the Jedi to enter the thoughts of another. Without additional skills he will not be able to change what he finds there (that requires affect mind) nor will he be able to sort through the vast cacophony of information should he delve deeper than the surface thoughts (that requires control mind) but even on its own this skill can be invaluable. |
| Quote: | Visualisation
Skill Group: Control
Visualization represents the character’s ability to clearly articulate his requirements and to impose those desires upon the Force. The skill is often thought of, by the Jedi at least, as a compliment to Concentration. Where that skill allows a Jedi to assimilate large amounts of information, visualization allows the Jedi to formulate information in a concise manner.
Through careful visualization the Force outside the Jedi’s Body can be moderated and adjusted with precision. Visualization is used to communicate large quantities of information concisely and when attempting to manipulate abstract energies and forces beyond the Jedi’s own body.
More experienced Jedi learn that the Force, even when dealing with abstract kinetic Force (in the form of telekinesis), energies and even the strange ties between a Force Spirit and his location responds to subtle changes in his or her inner Force. Learning to master those subtle, alien, adjustments is what this skill is about.
When attempting to moderate abstract Forces such as those generated with Create/Dissipate Energy or Telekinesis this is the skill you need. When attempting to attack with those skills this is the skill you use to make the attack roll. It is rarely opposed directly with the force defense skill but it can often be dodged or even parried.
When a Force spirit attempts to move through the Force, leaping to some distant location, it is this skill that it uses. When a Jedi attempts to throw force lightning at an opponent it is this skill that he uses for the attack. When a Sith master attempts to leap into a defenseless child it is an act of Visualization more than anything else. See what you want and the Force can make it happen but you must see clearly. |
| Quote: | Weave Force
Skill Group: Alter
Although uncommon among the Jedi this skill is prolific among the Sith and many other more primitive Force Traditions. The skill complements the Sense Force and Emptiness / Rage skills from the sense and alters skill groups and allows the user to manipulate the substance of the Force directly.
The skill is regarded as highly dangerous by the Jedi who believe that manipulating the Force directly is an act of great hubris. Its effects though are undeniably powerful with effects that persist in the ambient Force for potentially centuries and the Jedi themselves are not amiss to using the skill at the moment of their deaths in order to persist as Force Spirits. |
You still needed to use control, sense and alter skills in concert but now some powers might actually need more than one control skill or more than sense skill and the balance issues with control especially were sorted out.
I think it was this that really let us get a grip on the Force system. Its so intuitive and quick and fun... honestly, we often wonder why we didn't think of it earlier |
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Grimace
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Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Sun Mar 29, 2009 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Is that the entirety of the Force powers you utilize, cunning kindred? I ask because it seems like there's some gaps in things to do. |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: |
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Those are the Force Skills. They replaced control, sense and alter but like control, sense and alter they can be used in combination to achieve different effects. So Control Mind and Affect Mind can be used together to control someone else's mind or their pain. If you want a full list of all the powers you'll have to wait till I put up the massive update to the website we are working on (which I'm hoping will be some time this week - although we will continue to update and add to it) but for now you can check out the previous edition of the rules.
All of the power are slightly changed now because we did away with the variable bonus based on how successful your roll was because it took too long to calculate and frankly the same power creep began to appear at higher levels and we clarified a few things and reduced the bonuses for some of the powers but, other than that, the basic idea about how the various skills are combined to produce different effects is intact:
http://derriphan.110mb.com/Pdf/Chapter%202%20Techniques/Common%20Force%20Power%20Techniques.pdf
http://derriphan.110mb.com/Pdf/Chapter%202%20Techniques/Dark%20Side%20Power%20Techniques.pdf |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | For example, let's say our Jedi has Lightsaber 6D, Force at 3D and Lightsaber Combat at... 6D. Once Lightsaber Combat is active, they then have 6D to split between attack, parry (and redirection) and damage... |
That looks interesting. I like it. The Jedi still gets a nice perk for his power, but its spread out over 3 different things.
cunning_kindred,
I dl7s and looked over your rules. Nice layout. Some questions/observations (just my thoughts):
-I was wondering just how skill groups work. I see them mentioned, but I can't figure out just how the group works.
-In the skills pdf it mentiosn that a force skill is always under one and only one group, yet the force pdf has powers under mutiple groups. What am I missing here?
-I think some of the powers are a little too d20ish in style. One thing that made the Force a pain in d20 is having to look at the power descritpions to see how much of a bonus a character got from a roll. Your system kind of does the same thing. It sucks to have to flip through the rules to see just how many extra dice to roll or how much faster one moves.
-I think it would work better if the bonus was universal, and could be worked out without referring to the rules. Either something like +1D for every 5 or 10 points rolled over the difficulty, or fixed by the skill rating, like 1/2 the rating (like they WEG book handled Force Lightning).
-I think that levels for some powers (Burst of Speed/Force Speed) doesn't fit well with d6 and is too d20 ish. It would be better to have this work like all the other powers.
Just my opinion though. |
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cunning_kindred
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Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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 Great minds do think alive.
As I said: the version up on the website is over a year old and we've made several changes but I'll get to that in a second:
| Quote: | | I was wondering just how skill groups work. I see them mentioned, but I can't figure out just how the group works. |
Skill groups are a consistency thing. All the skills belonging to a certain group follow certain rules. All control skills only work on the person who uses them. All sense skills sense the force. All synergy skill provide bonuses. All movement skills are involved in moving and dodging. Also, many rules elsewhere in the game specifically refer to skills by their group.
| Quote: | | In the skills pdf it mentiosn that a force skill is always under one and only one group, yet the force pdf has powers under mutiple groups. What am I missing here? |
Each skill is under one group only but when a power involves two or more skills from different groups it obviously belongs to the combination. It doesn't really mean anything. I just like the feel of control + sense powers and control, sense and alter power. I could have listed all powers alphabetically or by skill (and combination thereof) but I like listing them in the WEG did because I think its cool.
| Quote: | -I think some of the powers are a little too d20ish in style. One thing that made the Force a pain in d20 is having to look at the power descritpions to see how much of a bonus a character got from a roll. Your system kind of does the same thing. It sucks to have to flip through the rules to see just how many extra dice to roll or how much faster one moves.
-I think it would work better if the bonus was universal, and could be worked out without referring to the rules. Either something like +1D for every 5 or 10 points rolled over the difficulty, or fixed by the skill rating, like 1/2 the rating (like they WEG book handled Force Lightning).
-I think that levels for some powers (Burst of Speed/Force Speed) doesn't fit well with d6 and is too d20 ish. It would be better to have this work like all the other powers. |
On all three counts: that is indeed what we found as we played. As I've said, a new document goes up soon but: now Force Powers give flat bonuses and as much as possible the tables have been removed. Where a power should get better the better version is now a separate advanced power that becomes available later on. You need not look it up. If you activate the more powerful version you get the larger bonus. Since you will generally use the same bonuses you need not look up the power.
On one note, the tables were always consistent. If you go through you will see that once you take into account the number of skills involved in a technique you can always work out what the table will say so I never needed to look through the books. That's a very important part of what we planned to do. We never want to need to look anything up if we can avoid it. The books are for inspiration between sessions and for looking up powers you've never used before. Once you use a power regularly you should not need to reach for the book at all. the problem was the table itself. Even when you knew the maths was just annoying and the outcome too random.
We have a new force speed power.
| Quote: | | Just my opinion though. |
Feedback is always welcome. When I put up the new draft of the rules I would love to hear your feedback. |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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I'm sorry if this might offend, but the latest posts seem to reek of powergaming. Too much Roll-playing and not enough Role-playing.
If you're flipping through tables to figure out how many extra dice you get or splitting up force powers into basic and advanced techniques, I just get the sense you're taking the rules in the wrong direction and that it's becoming too much like SWd20. (Feats and Class abilities, anyone?)
_________________
Han - "How're we doin'?"
Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 161
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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I happen to despise d20.
You need to decide what bonus you are going to give with a power. I believe you will find a table in enhance attribute. We've tried a number of different systems and the one we've finally settled on doesn't involve any tables at all (well, none worth talking about ).
As for roleplaying and roll-playing - there is a distinction between having an interest in the way that the rules work and powergaming. I'm a games designer. I like rules. I enjoy the mathematics, the strategies, involved there-in. Indeed, its my aim to make it as difficult as possible for anyone who would attempt to abuse the system.
A good rule system is all about supporting the roleplaying. I've played with a number of different systems and the thing I love about d6 star wars is that the rule system and the game world are perfectly matched. The rules support the feel and themes of star wars.
Indeed, when it comes to the Force, its the fact that the system becomes obsessed with breaking the Force down into easily definable packets where elsewhere its more fluid that the problem arises. My first attempt at 'fixing' the Force system was to bring the same fluid mechanics found elsewhere in the system to the Force. This didn't work because the Force is just too broad in what it is capable of doing. So I found a middle ground which I enjoyed - with rules that were fast but still rigid enough to enforce consistency and implemented it throughout the whole game. This is how I fixed it.
If you don't like the middle ground we as a group choose - and there is no reason to suppose everyone would - then the whole project will not appeal but if you want to be able to learn Vaapad, build a custom lightsaber, become an expert with a particular martial art, become a tactical mastermind and actually have these things mean something in the rules then what we've done will probably appeal.
Also, as I explained, we have worked hard to create a system where referring to the book (least of all flipping through tables) never ever happens. I want a person to be able to ignore the book when they are playing but when it comes time to sit down with the book between sessions I want it to be filled with options that players can long to purchase, powers they want the excitement of using, and above all... flexibility and choice.
| Quote: | | (Feats and Class abilities, anyone?) |
And this final comment seems a little strange. Feats and class abilities are already part of WEG. They are just another way of making rules. Disparaging the names that a particular system uses for what can be found throughout all systems just because you don't like the system seems a little foolish - no offense intended.
As I said, I do not like d20 - indeed, after pulling it apart and putting it back together again several times I came to hate its inconsistency and arbitrary nature. I can think of no system so completely unsuited to star wars in almost every way (although I will admit that Saga has taken strides in the right direction, its no where near far enough). That said, it is a very successful system and it does capture the feel of D&D perfectly. You might not like the game but there is nothing to ridicule in its design - a lot of hard working people spent a long time putting it together and, when it works, its a perfectly fun game to play - its just so NOT the right system for star wars. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | I'm sorry if this might offend, but the latest posts seem to reek of powergaming. Too much Roll-playing and not enough Role-playing.
If you're flipping through tables to figure out how many extra dice you get or splitting up force powers into basic and advanced techniques, I just get the sense you're taking the rules in the wrong direction and that it's becoming too much like SWd20. (Feats and Class abilities, anyone?) |
Ah, Re-run, that was the point about someone's revision for Force powers where many of the powers worked in a manner akin to d20 SW. The author did say that pdf was an outdated version and that said rules have since been streamlined.
That said, to some extent this problem (rules-flipping) is already a problem for Jedi in d6. If a PC is trying to jump out of a pit before the Rancor eats him, it can be important to know what Enhance Attribute can do for your jumping skill. |
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