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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834
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 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: |
The difficulty with the hole in the roof or picture analogies is that, unlike the water or fire ones, they deal more with a 2-D model than a 3-D one, in which the medium that the hole is being detected in isn't also surrounding the hole to mask its presence. Think of it kind of like a signal to noise ratio. There's a lot more noise (ie heat or water) in the way to mask a lack of it than there is picture to mask the hole. Though if you punched a hole in one picture and mixed it into a stack of pictures, it would be more like the idea... and just as difficult to detect. |
I think that this analogy fits really well. Kudos. |
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Reyus Graven
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Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Anacortes, Wa
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| vong wrote: | | Expendable Hero wrote: | | 2nd I think that an analogy like sensing the dead space in fire or the water is fine. Sure a normal human can't detect it, but where not talking about normal humans. A normal human can even detect rocks and other objects in the water if there close. How about dolphins what can they detect in the water. If you took a picture and cut a hole out of it you would notice even if you didn't know for sure what was missing. If the Jedi can sense everything except for this one hole in the universe it wouldn't be like sensing cold in a fire it would be like sensing a hole in your roof or if someone suddenly cut a hole out of the sunset you where just watching. You would have a hard time not taking notice because it would stand out as being so different. |
True, to a point. Ankhanu has a point where there is more noise. but near the end of the war Jedi were used to searching for the nothing, so they were starting to "detect" the bubble. but they had to be actively looking for it. |
True but eventually they could. I guess it's something I would make the characters have to work at if they are jedi trying to sense the vong. Though I must admit hes easier to sense in the rancor pits. Hes everywhere 
As for premonitions a large power such as the force could still put together a danger to itself and the universe at whole but I wouldn't be so plane as to let them see the vong. I would just use metaphors to represent a great danger. That way your being vague cause the force can't tell exactly whats going on within it, just that theres trouble. Kind of like a virus you can feel the damage effects of a virus but you cant tell usually what the virus is.
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Expendable Hero
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Joined: 26 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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In the books when the jedi first meet the vong they have trouble facing them one on one, but as the books progress they are able to fight more and more of the enemy at once. The most likely reason is that the jedi learn on a Subconscious level they have adapted to sense the vong in some way. How else would they get so much better without to much of an improvement when fighting the other races comparatively. Also I agree that a hole in a house is in no way equipt to compare with sensing the lack of force but my point is that there not looking for something a little off there looking for something that shouldn't be possible according to there instincts. It would be more about learning what to look for if you can find it. I have a friend who is color blind and even though some colors look the same to him 9 times out of 10 he can tell you the right color because he has learned what to look for. It would be the same for sensing the lack of force. If you didn't know what to look for you can't see it. Once the jedi were placed in semi constant contact with it they would have plenty of chances to learn what to look for.
The way I handle questions like this normally is to just go by cannon and follow the movies/books. If I did allow people to sense the lack of force it would defiantly have an increased challenge that would get a little easier as you had more contact with it. In effect until you spent a fair amount of time with the vong the difficulty would be so high that even masters would have trouble but as you go along it would get easier but never easy. |
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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I would probably create a Vongsense power or impose a requisite CP cost to start being able to sense them. They eventually learn to sense their presence, but it took quite a while.
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Reyus Graven
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Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Anacortes, Wa
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| Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | I would probably create a Vongsense power or impose a requisite CP cost to start being able to sense them. They eventually learn to sense their presence, but it took quite a while. |
One other possibility is the fact that the Vong were outside of the force therefore outside of its flows but as they were a part the universe the force to a degree made them part of it. So progressively over time vong were to a limited degree part of the force. Another way to look at it. I've read nothing in the Vong series so I don't know much more then they are immune to the force. I always figured it was because they had come from somewhere the force wasn't.
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Expendable Hero
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Joined: 26 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| The vong are not separate from the force. If I remember the books correctly they where originally strong force users who lived on a sentient planet. Then they started to abuse there abilities so the planet basically put a barrier up between there race and the force effectively cutting them off completely from it. However they would still have some sort of connection with the force like any living creature theres just a wall the blocks both sides from connecting. |
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vong
Jedi
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 6699
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| Expendable Hero wrote: | In the books when the jedi first meet the vong they have trouble facing them one on one, but as the books progress they are able to fight more and more of the enemy at once. The most likely reason is that the jedi learn on a Subconscious level they have adapted to sense the vong in some way. How else would they get so much better without to much of an improvement when fighting the other races comparatively. Also I agree that a hole in a house is in no way equipt to compare with sensing the lack of force but my point is that there not looking for something a little off there looking for something that shouldn't be possible according to there instincts. It would be more about learning what to look for if you can find it. I have a friend who is color blind and even though some colors look the same to him 9 times out of 10 he can tell you the right color because he has learned what to look for. It would be the same for sensing the lack of force. If you didn't know what to look for you can't see it. Once the jedi were placed in semi constant contact with it they would have plenty of chances to learn what to look for.
The way I handle questions like this normally is to just go by cannon and follow the movies/books. If I did allow people to sense the lack of force it would defiantly have an increased challenge that would get a little easier as you had more contact with it. In effect until you spent a fair amount of time with the vong the difficulty would be so high that even masters would have trouble but as you go along it would get easier but never easy. |
They didnt get better at sensing them, just got used to the tactics required to fight them. They depended on their force abilities to fight, and then when it did not work, they were surprised. So they just adapted a fighting style, did not sense them,
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vong
Jedi
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | | I would probably create a Vongsense power or impose a requisite CP cost to start being able to sense them. They eventually learn to sense their presence, but it took quite a while. |
They would not get a vong sense unless they had a lot of direct contact. 2 characters had a vong sense Jacen (i think) who was taught by Vergree (sp) about the vong, and how to sense them and the other was a girl who was captured and implanted with vong biotech. she could sense them through this tech.
They way they describe it is like light. All the things from the universe are in the visible spectrum (can be sense in the force) and the vong were shifted to the infrared. If you understood this, you could switch your perspective and sense them easily (which i think Jacen did). But while he sense the vong, he did not sense the rest of the stuff.
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Ankhanu
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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Interesting.
Yeah, I kind of inferred where I should have been explicit; to develop the ability, there would have to be an in-game reason to develop it, BUT I would also impose a CP cost to gain it, and probably make is fairly steep.
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vong
Jedi
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Ankhanu wrote: | Interesting.
Yeah, I kind of inferred where I should have been explicit; to develop the ability, there would have to be an in-game reason to develop it, BUT I would also impose a CP cost to gain it, and probably make is fairly steep. |
Yes, and the only way to do this would be to have lots of direct contact with the vong. both people had friendly (ish) contact with the Vong for extended periods of time.
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Last edited by vong on Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lordnordeth
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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Location: Halifax NS Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I've always handled DSP's based on the intent of the user, and how the Force is used.
For example: In ESB, when Vader is hurling objects at Luke in the bowels of Cloud City. His intention was not to Kill Luke, he (and the Emperor) wanted Luke turned to the Dark Side. Sure, the items hitting Luke were hurting him, but the size, and apparant weight/mass of some of those containers, would obviously have killed him if they had struck him under normal circumstances, so (to me anyways) Vader was obviously using the Force to decrease the impact and merely batter and knock Luke off balance, not kill him, so no DSP.
Example 2: When Luke uses the "Force Choke" on the Gammorean's in RotJ, his intent was to disable, and render them incapable of fighting back, he did not strike them down while they were incapacitated, as he could easily have done, not do we see them die. To me, he merely used the Force to render them unconcious, and prevent a fight in which he surely would have had to kill them, thereby using the Force (albeit in an "offensive" manner) to preserve life, so again, no DSP's.
To me this is further supported by the fact that the mere existence and or use of the Light Saber Combat power, does not get the Jedi a DSP when he uses it, or re-directs a Blaster Bolt to strike (and possibly kill) a target.
If the Force automatically gave a DSP if it was used to harm or kill a target, then every Jedi we have seen on screen would have MASSIVE amounts of them.
I feel that it goes more along the lines of (Paraphrasing here) When the Force is used in Anger, or to Kill, then it opens one to the Darkside. If you do not specifically intend for your actions to kill, then you might be ok, it depends on what you're doing, and how. If you accidentally kill someone through the Force (For example, you miss with a deflected Blaster Bolt, and you hit an innocent and kill him), if you acknowledge that you did wrong, and you genuinely realize that you screwed up, and feel sorry about it, then you are not in danger of a DSP, but if you do it, and callously go "Oops...oh well" then prepare to get one!
It may not be book rule, but I think it is more in the spirit of how things are shown in the movies, and the general feeling behind the Force.
Just my 2 cents worth, I've been playing since 1989, and been using this way of doing things since about '92, and it has seemed to work pretty well. It requires a little more paying attention to what your players are doing, and a little more emotive roleplaying on the part of your players (if after the battle, the player who killed the person accidentally does not take some action to attone for his actions, and show remorse, then he may get a point. Furthermore, if it happens several times, and he seems to just be doing it, and not taking care not to have it happen, I'll give him a DSP because he's "sliding towards the darkside with his actions".
Now, with regards to the Vong, even though they exist outside the ability for the Force to perceive, they are still living beings, and Force users have been shown to (later on) be able to develop the ability to sense them within the Force, I would say that the same rules and scenario's I've applied above would apply. Just because the Jedi cant Sense them within the Force, doesn't mean that they Jedi goes brain dead and forgets everything that has been drilled into the core of his belief and moral code, these are still obviously living beings, just of a different nature than what the Jedi knows, so if the Jedi intentionally sets out to use the Force to specifically kill a Vong in cold blood, then yeah, he'd get a DSP from me, if it was in a fight for his life, where the Jedi is using the Force to augment his skills against a capable opponent, then No, I wouldn't give a DSP.
Hope this all makes sense, if not, ask away, I'll try to clarify what I mean (because in the end, the way I do it is VERY subjective, not black and white, or cut and dry) |
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