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Artillery.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The navigational coordinates could be covered by the Sensors skill.

Maybe, if using a vehicle or droid mounted targeting device, but Sensors applies to devices. If you're using macrobinocs and a map to call the shot, that's something else.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps the best solution is to base the bonus on the character's skill whether the character is doing the shooting or the spotting. Since the focus of the story is on the PCs, and not some faceless mook of a cannon cocker somewhere, have it based on which duty the PC is performing. If the PC is the spotter, use that PCs Artillery skill (or whatever) to determine accuracy, subject to the penalties described above. Conversely, if the PC is the gunner, still use the PCs Artillery skill to accurately fire the cannon. After all, if the purpose of the dice is to randomly generate a result, we don't really need two different rolls.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Raven Redstar wrote:
The navigational coordinates could be covered by the Sensors skill.

Maybe, if using a vehicle or droid mounted targeting device, but Sensors applies to devices. If you're using macrobinocs and a map to call the shot, that's something else.

I have a general Navigation skill (Mechanical) that includes general sense of direction, spatial awareness, mapmaking and map using that would seem to apply here.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
An idea for Spotting Rules: Treat it like partial concealment.

Here's what I'm thinking:

-An artillery weapon suffers a -1D penalty to Gunnery when shooting a low-velocity ballistic shot at a target that is visible to its own sensors. If the weapon is able to fire a "flat" trajectory (linear and high velocity), it suffers no penalty.

-If the target is out of line-of-sight, but is being targeted by some sort of remote targeting sensor (whether handheld or vehicle/droid-mounted), the artillery weapon fires at a -2D penalty to Gunnery, although this can be offset by bonuses from the targeting sensor itself.*

-If the target is out of line-of-sight, but is being targeted by a spotter using comms to relay and adjust coordinates, the artillery weapon fires at a -4D penalty to Gunnery. This is reduced to -3D if the spotter is utilizing precision devices to assist in spotting, such as range & direction finding macrobinoculars and/or GPS-type systems.

There is also room for spotters to be able to increase (or decrease) the accuracy of a shot by how well they call it in, but I'm not quite sure what skill would be the best fit for this.


*For example, a TIE/fc could designate a surface target for an artillery weapon that is over the horizon from it (for a 6' / 1.8 meter human, the horizon is roughly 5 kilometers away). The cannon suffers a -2D penalty due to partial concealment, but the TIE/fc's advanced spotting systems offset that penalty and allow the cannon to fire without penalty.


Would the spotter bonus increase after initial rounds impact; for the effect of adjusting fire and/or bracketing?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Perhaps the best solution is to base the bonus on the character's skill whether the character is doing the shooting or the spotting. Since the focus of the story is on the PCs, and not some faceless mook of a cannon cocker somewhere, have it based on which duty the PC is performing. If the PC is the spotter, use that PCs Artillery skill (or whatever) to determine accuracy, subject to the penalties described above. Conversely, if the PC is the gunner, still use the PCs Artillery skill to accurately fire the cannon. After all, if the purpose of the dice is to randomly generate a result, we don't really need two different rolls.


This is true, you could base the spotter's ability to see, interpret, and report relevant data to the fire team as being in line with the character's own (Blaster) Artillery skill, since it's likely that the skill involves being able to make the necessary calculations to achieve an effective firing solution.

In my games, if a character is operating a piece of artillery, this would fall under my Gunnery skill in Mechanical.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Would the spotter bonus increase after initial rounds impact; for the effect of adjusting fire and/or bracketing?

That makes sense. Perhaps reduce the penalty by 1D after the first shot, but potentially counterbalanced by a moving target. Say artillery is fired at a stationary vehicle and misses; the spotter/shooter gets a 1D penalty reduction on subsequent shots. However, the vehicle immediately starts moving out of the impact area, making it a more difficult target, adding +1D to the penalty.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
This is true, you could base the spotter's ability to see, interpret, and report relevant data to the fire team as being in line with the character's own (Blaster) Artillery skill, since it's likely that the skill involves being able to make the necessary calculations to achieve an effective firing solution.

Exactly. Skills are defined broadly enough that verbal spotting methodology would be included in the skill.

Sensors could also be used if one were using a Sensor Array of some form to do the target spotting. My Sensor Lock-On rules from the Advanced Starfighter Combat would work just fine here.

This adds a new layer of nastiness to Viper Probe Droids, too, as they could very easily serve as mobile spotters, as well...

Quote:
In my games, if a character is operating a piece of artillery, this would fall under my Gunnery skill in Mechanical.

I always figured Blaster Artillery belonged in Mechanical, as well. The next question is, should there be a Projectile Artillery skill separate and distinct from Blaster Artillery, or should it all be grouped under one Artillery skill? I'm inclined to the former; they broke up Blaster, Firearms and Missile Weapons under Dexterity...
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I always figured Blaster Artillery belonged in Mechanical, as well. The next question is, should there be a Projectile Artillery skill separate and distinct from Blaster Artillery, or should it all be grouped under one Artillery skill? I'm inclined to the former; they broke up Blaster, Firearms and Missile Weapons under Dexterity..


That really depends on the feel you're going for in your games, as time has gone on, I've been more inclined toward lumping skills into fewer, more generalized to keep with the pulpy space opera feel of the SWU. Admittedly, I also tend to run for smaller groups, and lately have even started essentially running games for myself, and rather than keeping tabs on a ton of NPCs necessary for playing with the more specialized skill lists of R&E and even more so REUP. I've slimmed my list down to a handful in each attribute, of which I will slim or expand based on the number of players I'm running for. But, this is a discussion for another topic.

My short answer would be, whatever works best for the feel of your game. That's the beautiful thing about a skill based system, you can lump in or exclude whatever works for what you're trying to do.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
My short answer would be, whatever works best for the feel of your game. That's the beautiful thing about a skill based system, you can lump in or exclude whatever works for what you're trying to do.

IMO, the differences in ballistics between Blasters and Firearms are even more pronounced at the level of combat artillery (primarily due to ballistic arc vs. linear firing methods) than they are with personal weaponry. If there is a need for two separate personal weapons skills (Blasters and Firearms), then there is an even more pronounced need for artillery weapons.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

We discussed this previously while wrangling out the blast radius rules. The only way to really represent the randomness of an artillery barrage is to use the characters' Dodge skill rolls represent how hard they are to hit, whether they are consciously dodging or not. Everybody gets a Dodge roll (modified by Cover) which helps determine by how much the artillery barrage missed by, and thus how much damage rolls off the damage roll..


And i'll once again reitterate my concern that unless they can some how detect the incoming rounds, there shouldn't BE any dodges as they'd be caught surprised..

Quote:
I always figured Blaster Artillery belonged in Mechanical, as well. The next question is, should there be a Projectile Artillery skill separate and distinct from Blaster Artillery, or should it all be grouped under one Artillery skill? I'm inclined to the former; they broke up Blaster, Firearms and Missile Weapons under Dexterity...


Yes. Balistic artillery (projectile) operates a LOT differently imo than blaster. As blaster artillery generally should be a direct line..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And i'll once again reiterate my concern that unless they can some how detect the incoming rounds, there shouldn't BE any dodges as they'd be caught surprised.

And I'm well aware from our voluminous previous conversations on the matter that you are less interested in a solution that allows them to Dodge than you are in a chance to try out your undodgeable AT-TPK walker on a group of PCs who have no way of fighting back.

You're forgetting our previous discussion on the Damage Reduction method for simulating a blast radius. In this instance, Dodge isn't actually a Dodge. What it IS is the only available method within the RAW to generate the randomness of artillery fire. As in, the only way to explain why Character A is Incapacitated from a near-miss, while Character B is just Stunned and Character C isn't hurt at all.

If you have any better ideas, I'm all ears, but so far all I've seen you do in this topic is shoot down possible solutions for not being "realistic enough."
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what would be some sample Difficulties and Modifiers for spotters? I know back in the very first pages, there was discussion of using pre-plotted fire for an automatic hit. Would this just be an example of the Preparation rule making the Gunnery roll easier, or does it need more nuance?

Also (although this may be getting ahead of ourselves), advanced artillery in a sci-fi setting can also be used for counter-battery (tracking shells in flight back to their origin point and bombarding that point to take out the artillery) and counter-artillery (using direct-fire weaponry to engage and destroy shells in flight before they can hit their targets). I've tried to incorporate rules for counter-artillery fire into any artillery weapon stats I've written so far, but I haven't really put any thought into how counter-battery fire would work under the RAW. Thoughts?
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the idea of the spotter's roll granting a bonus to the artillery team.

Spotters Roll:
1 - 5 = +2
6 - 11 = +4
12 - 15 = +6
16 - 20 = +8
21 - 30 = +10
31+ = +12
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven, what would the spotter be rolling, and what against, to determine those bonuses?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After some consideration, I added rules for Flare and Smoke (actually its sci-fi equivalent) to the post where I described the rules for different artillery rounds. Since both Smoke and Flares affect Concealment - one by negating Darkness and the other by obscuring vision, I gave them both a maximum effect of 4D (as per the Concealment rules in the 2R&E Rulebook), then gave them both rather large Blast Radius modifiers.
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