Flamethrowers

[Tahlorn]

Honestly, I think it would do more than that for damage. If a WWII backpack explodes, and there is any charge left, you are dead. Is like a big ghernbade, because isn't just flaming fuel, but the case explodes as well. Damage would somehow be proportional to how many blasts were left in my mind. It is akin to a powder horn exploding, which will blow off your hip, along with a some amount of your leg and side.

As for putting out fire, I agree that is should be a Dex check. Difficulty dpending upon clothing, surroundings, etc.

[Robert]

Well, what i wanted to show there is a third type of flamethrowers. The SR flamethrower can either shoot at one target or in an arc, as the shooter wishes. The arc isnt done by bursting flames but by spraying the liquid around. Damage is moderate to low in SR.

I dont have the Aliens RPG rules at hand, but i will take a look into them.

WWII Flamers: Well i dont think they will be in use in a sciencefiction setting like Star Wars. Only on atomic or industrial worlds. Therefore flame-throwers will either be the combiweapon as in Aliens - limited by shooting only flames and short range, probably munitioned by gas or there are compact liquid flamers which arent good at spraying but at hitting one target. probably both types are available.


Damage and extinguishing:
DEX might really be better. If you you judge the difficulty M to extinguish the flames you have to take into account the wound and multiaction penalties. I think spending a whole round to extinguish the flames with no good chance of succeding makes flamers a balanced weapon. The other damage codes in discussion are nearly autodeath for any victim. Even WWII flamers mostly suceeded because they were causing fear and a horrible death even behind cover not because they were that good weapons at all. Maybe there are really flamers which are shooting napalmlike liquids, therefore causing that massive damage. But they should be difficult to wield and dangerous to use.

[KageRyu]

[garhkal]

So, how would you do the continual damage???

I worked this up for an example of how i could see it being done...

DP0-x3 backpack operated Flamer
Model: Flame thrower, backpack fueled
Scale: Character
Skill: Flamethrower?? Does this exist?
Ammo: Full packs, grant 12 rounds of continual streaming, or 24 'sprays'
Cost: 1,800 credits. Refuels of the backpack cost 750 credits
Availability: 2, X (some worlds consider them just R)
Range: 2-4 with a 3 feet bredth/15 with a 4 feet breadth/45 with a 5 feet breadth.
Damage: 4d+2 dropping +2 per range catagory. Burns until goes out, or is extinguished by full emersion in water/foam, but looses 1 pip per 2 rounds of burning, to a minimum of 2d+2.

This weapon is considered by many, to be inhumae, as it coats the target with a flamable gel. Rarely does it kill instantly, like many weapons, but continues to burn, causing damage for a long time. Some have witnessed people staying alight, burning for 2 full minutes, screaming as they went.
It has 2 fire modes.
Full round streaming. In this mode, the operator sprays the weapon, and does nothing else. ANYONE in a 45 degree arc in his front, has to make a dodge roll, out to the weapons maximum range, or get coated. The operator, only has to make 1 to hit roll, against the furthest target.
'Single' shot spray. A quick 2-3 second burst towards a single target, though it might get 2 opponents if at medium or long range, with it having a 5 feet 'cone' out at that range.. Standard to hit roll, versus dodge.

Any target hit, that does not FULLY soak the initial damage, is considered to be covered. He will be suffering damage, each round, as listed above in damage, until 1 of the following occurs...
1) He is fully emersed in water.
2) He is covered by a flame blanket and has the fire beaten out: dex check by the 'beaters', needing to get DOUBLE the initial damage roll (eg damage was 22, beating roll needs to get 44 to put it out) though this roll is an extended action.
3) Gets covered by fire retardent foam (AFFF!!!).
Just dropping and rolling does not put it out, but may reduce the damage that accrudes from burning.

The backpack itself, is prone to problems, if hit. It has a 2d+2 body, but if suffers heavy damage or greater, blows up on the wearer. The wearer takes damage as if the remaining fuel was 'Combined' into a massive shot. EG has 5 full rounds left of continual streams (giving 10 sprays). On the combined chart, 10 people give 4d bonus, so the wearer takes 8d+2 damage....
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[TarlSS]

If we're talking about a "modern" Star Wars backpack flamethrower, the makers would have used a substance hotter than napalm that would allow it to suit it's purpose.

A flamethrower really does far more damage then even your typical blaster or even repeating blaster should since it has a role of an ultra-heavy weapon. A full body flamethrower burn is going to hurt and be harder to recover from than a blaster hole. For sakes, these things are designed to burn through small tanks and other vehicles! Napalm wouldn't cut through walker armor, but I'd think plasma-jelly or some made up Star Wars crap could.

I'd go ahead and make it close to the damage equivelent to a rocket launcher, since frankly they fulfill a very similiar battlefield role, namely softening up hardpoints. The main disadvantage is of course, the chemical fuel tank, the lack of range, and the fact it makes you a huge, glaring target. Put it at 7D with 5D burn damage, character scale and then give it a forward arc radius, ala decksweepers.

A full-scale backpack flamer isn't really supposed to be balanced with handguns and the like. It belongs in the mission specific toolbox with portable E-web turrets and rocketlaunchers. Additionally they have drastic environmental effects, like burning down entire sections of forests and cities and the like. Not something you use in an urban environment or interior unless you'd like that environment not to be there anymore. Someone using a flamethrower is more than likely to hurt himself unless he's really smart about it.

When porting modern equipment to Star Wars, I look at the battlefield role of the thing, and use technology to compensate. Flamethrowers are a very useful military tool and I think governments like the Empire and more sinister types would continue keeping up something like them with the current technology.

[garhkal]

Ok. Made some changes, corrections, and added in a question at the end.

DP0-x3 backpack operated Flamer
Model: Flame thrower, backpack fueled
Scale: Character
Skill: Flamethrower?? Does this exist?
Ammo: Full packs, grant 12 rounds of continual streaming, or 24 'sprays'
Cost: 1,800 credits. Refuels of the backpack cost 750 credits
Availability: 2, X (some worlds consider them just R)
Range: 2-4 with a 3 feet bredth/15 with a 4 feet breadth/45 with a 5 feet breadth.
Damage: 6d/5d/4d Base. Starting with the round AFTER being hit, the target also has to ‘soak’ the continual burning, starting out at –2 pips of the base damage, loosing a further pip for every 2 rounds it continues to burn. It stays like this, till it reaches 3 straight rounds of being at 2d damage, OR someone puts it out (see below).

Many consider this weapon, to be inhumane, as it coats the target with a flammable gel. Rarely does it kill instantly, like many weapons, but continues to burn, causing damage for a long time. Some have witnessed people staying alight, burning for 2 full minutes, and screaming as they went.
It has 2 fire modes.
Full round streaming. In this mode, the operator sprays the weapon, and does nothing else. ANYONE in a 45-degree arc in his front has to make a dodge roll, out to the weapons maximum range, or get coated. The operator only has to make 1 to hit roll, against the furthest target.
'Single' shot spray. A quick 2-3 second burst towards a single target, though it might get 2 opponents if at medium or long range, with it having a 5 feet 'cone' out at that range.

To make the hit, he first off, applies a penalty of 2 pips per person in the ‘desired target area’. He then rolls his to hit roll, aiming for the furthest person. If it is successful, everyone else in the area is also considered to be hit. If he misses, but scores enough to hit a moderate difficulty, he will tag anyone within short range only. If he misses and scores an easy difficulty, he will only hit anyone within 3 meters or less. “This is for those who are being attacked on the sly, and therefore get no dodge”.
If they are aware of the attack, they can dodge, as normal, and the BEST DODGE from anyone at the “long range’ pool, becomes his target number to hit them all.
His to hit pool, suffers a penalty of +2 pips per person in the arc he is wishing to target.

Any target hit, that does not FULLY soak the initial damage, becomes covered. He will be suffering damage, each round, as listed above in damage, until 1 of the following occurs...
1) He is fully immersed in water.
2) He is covered by a flame blanket and has the fire beaten out: dex check by the 'beaters', needing to get DOUBLE the initial damage roll (e.g. damage was 22, beating roll needs to get 44 to put it out) though this roll is an extended action.
3) Gets covered by fire retardant foam (AFFF!!!).
4) The ‘burning damage’ has been at 2d for 3 straight rounds.
Just dropping and rolling does not put it out, but may reduce the damage that accrues from burning.

The backpack itself, is prone to problems, if hit. It has a 2d+2 body, but if suffers heavy damage or greater, blows up on the wearer. The wearer takes damage as if the remaining fuel was 'Combined' into a massive shot. EG has 5 full rounds left of continual streams (giving 10 sprays). On the combined chart, 10 people give 4d bonus, so the wearer takes 8d+2 damage. In addition, due to the bulkiness of the backpack, the wearer is considered to be at –1d to all Dexterity related checks (EXCEPT FOR THE FLAMER ITSELF)



Also. If you are hit more than once, with one of the 'burn your butt for X number of rounds' type flamers/flame throwers, do you add to the damage, or roll each one separately?

EG. Hurois and his 3 friends have been trailing this bad guy for quite some time. They think they have him cornered, when from their side, he strikes with out warning, unleashing a broad stream flame thrower on them, but only hitting 2 (only made the short range diff, not the medium, where the other 2 were), both being lucky and only taking a wound.

In the first proper round of combat, he sprays and hits Hurois' medic companion a second time, avoids all the counter attacks, and hits the medic a third time. At the end of the round, he checks for his burn damage from the initial outburst, and takes a stun (due to popping CP).

Now, for next round, he his hit once more, while the pistolier (the other guy on fire!) takes the BGs second attack for this round.... At the end of this round, would the medic have to make 1 soak roll, using the 3 'burnings' as 1 with a bonus from the others, or would he have to 'soak' each one separately?
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[garhkal]

I just made a few revisions to the weapon and the rules. As well as made a better example of this item in action..

DP0-x3 backpack operated Flamer
Model: Flame thrower, backpack fueled
Scale: Character
Skill: Flamethrower
Ammo: Full packs have 32 ‘Fuels’. A short-range spray consumes 1 fuel. A medium range spray consumes 2. A long-range spray consumes 4, while a full round stream consumes 6.
Cost: 1,800 credits. Refuels of the backpack cost 750 credits
Availability: 2, X (some worlds consider them just R)
Rate of fire: 4 sprays at short range, 2 at medium, 1 at long (or one medium and one short), optionally 1 full round streaming.
Range: 0-10 with a 3 feet bredth/20 with a 4 feet breadth/45 with a 5 feet breadth.
Damage: 6d/5d/4d Base. Starting with the round AFTER being hit, the target also has to ‘soak’ the continual burning, starting out at –2 pips of the base damage, loosing a further pip for every 2 rounds it continues to burn. It stays like this, till it reaches 3 straight rounds of being at 2d damage, OR someone puts it out (see below).

NOTE: Short- range shots use up ‘1’ sprays worth, medium use 2, and long 4.

Many consider this weapon, to be inhumane, as it coats the target with a flammable gel. Rarely does it kill instantly, like many weapons, but continues to burn, causing damage for a long time. Some have witnessed people staying alight, burning for 2 full minutes, and screaming as they went.

It has 2 fire modes;
Full stream or spray.
1) Full round streaming.
In this mode, the operator sprays the weapon, and does nothing else. ANYONE in a 45-degree arc can be hit. This is found by;
Surprised opponents/targets - The operator only has to make 1 to hit roll, against the furthest target/hardest to hit target (if say one of those in closer, has cover or concealment bonuses making his base diff to hit harder).

Non-surprised targets – everyone in the target area makes a dodge roll and whom ever gets the highest, sets the ‘difficulty to hit.
Regardless of whether the opponents are surprised or not, the users Flame Thrower skill gets dropped by –2 pips for every opponent in the arc area past the first target.

2) 'Single' shot spray.
This is basically a straight out burst of flame, taking longer to reach its target, the further out the target is. Hence the higher ROF for shorter ranges. This will normally hit only the one target, though it might get 2 opponents if at medium or long range, with it having a 5 feet 'cone' out at that range.

Any target hit, that does not FULLY soak the initial damage, becomes covered. He will be suffering damage, each round, as listed above in damage, until 1 of the following occurs...
1) He is fully immersed in water.
2) He is covered by a flame blanket and has the fire beaten out: dex check by the 'beaters', needing to get DOUBLE the initial damage roll (e.g. damage was 22, beating roll needs to get 44 to put it out) though this roll is an extended action.
3) Gets covered by fire retardant foam (AFFF!!!).
4) The ‘burning damage’ has been at 2d for 3 straight rounds.
Just dropping and rolling does not put it out, but may reduce the damage that accrues from burning.

The backpack itself, is prone to problems, if hit. It has a 2d+2 body, but if suffers heavy damage or greater, blows up on the wearer. The wearer takes damage as if the remaining fuel was 'Combined' into a massive shot. EG has 5 full rounds left of continual streams (giving 20 sprays). On the combined chart, 20 people give 5d bonus, so the wearer takes 10d+2 damage. In addition, due to the bulkiness of the backpack, the wearer is considered to be at –1d to all Dexterity related checks (EXCEPT FOR THE FLAMER ITSELF)



Example of use:

Hathor, the Dark Jedi, is fleeing the rebels. His trusty henchman has positioned himself, hidden in a cranny. He waits till the rebels pass him, and rises up, unleashing a full round stream.
Since they failed to spot him, it is considered a surprise attack. There are a total of 6 targets in his ‘area’, with the furthest being slap bang in long range. None of the targets have cover, concealment or any other bonuses/penalties to hit. So he rolls his Flame Thrower Skill, of 9d minus (5 X 2 pips 3d+1) or 5d+2, and gets 3,3,3,4,4 for a total of 19. This is enough to hit everyone in the area.
2 of the rebels are at each ‘range category. Those 2 at short range have to soak against 6D damage (23), and both take a wound. (PC 1 and 2)
Those 2 at medium range have to soak against 5d damage (19) and 1 takes a stun, the other fully soaks it. (PC 3 and 4)
Those 2 at long range have to soak against 4d damage (19 as well) and both take a stun. (PC 5 and 6)

So at the end of the combat surprise round, we have 5 of 6 targets coated, and will be burning, 2 of them have a single wound, and the other 3 have stuns.

COMBAT round1. The party loose initiative, and all declare dodges as well as 2 shots. The baddie, for his part, declares a dodge and 2 medium range sprays.
His first goes off, at the un-covered person, but misses. The players all take their actions, and miss. He takes his second spray, and again, misses. They also miss their second attacks.
End of round resolution:
PCs 1 and 2 have to soak against 5d+1 damage.
PC #4 has to soak against 4d+1.
PCs 5 and 6 have to soak against 3d+1.
All manage to soak, but some did have to use character points. Now those 2 guys at long-range, and the one medium-range are free of damage (since they were only stunned) but are still covered in flames.

COMAT round 2. Again, the player’s loose initiative, and they declare one shot each, due to wanting to hit the baddie this time. HE for his part declares 2 short-range sprays (wanting to conserve ammo). His first shot hits, and delivers another wound, to PC #1. They all shoot, but those 2 who hit, deal no damage. His second shot, again hits PC #1 and deals another wound, knocking him out.
End of round resolution,:
PCs 1 and 2 have to soak against 5d+1 damage. PC 1 takes another wound, putting him to mortally wounded. PC 2 takes a wound (his second now)
PC #4 has to soak against 4d+1. He soaks his damage.
PCs 5 and 6 have to soak against 3d+1. Through the luck of the dice (well unlucky for the pcs) each take stun result.


COMBAT round 3. This time the players actually win initiative, one of them, seeing the situation as being desperate, decides to spend a force point. He goes for 3 shots, one of them being a called shot to try and hit the henchman’s backpack. The other players each declare one shot.
The force pointed PC’s first shot (the called shot), misses by a wild margin, while 2 of the other players connect, but only deal out a stun. The henchman’s makes his counter attack. Going for a single long-range spray at the person who shot at his backpack (pc #5). Unfortunately for PC #5 and PC #6 (the other long range guy) the GM decides that both are standing within 5 feet of one another, and so both have to make a dodge. Both get high, but sorry for them, the baddie gets higher, coating both, dealing a stun to player #5 and a wound to player 6.
End of round resolution:
PC 1 goes first. He has to make 1 soak at 5d damage, and 2 at 5d+1. He fails all three, taking a trio more of wounds, which pushes him over the edge.
PC 2 goes next, soaking 5d damage (now), and makes it, by hairs breadth.
PC 4 goes next, soaking at 4d, taking a stun.
PCs 5 and 6 have only 1 to make at 3d, due to their other hit coming this round.

COMBAT round 4. Again the PCs win, and again one declares a force point. The PCs all declare one shot, while the baddie decides for a full stream, at everyone. This time, one of the other PCs thinks about things, and asks for a command roll, to combine everyone (still up). The Gm has him make his roll, which succeeds, and the FP pc (#4) decides to use his increased skill to make the called shot (that player #5 tried last round). This time, he succeeds, and scores a lightly damaged result (darn those 1s).
The henchman’s stream misses everyone (due to a poor roll).
END OF ROUND RESOLUTION,
PC #1 does not need to make any soaks, as he is dead.
PC 2, has to make one at 5d (the second he has to make) succeeding again.
PC 4, soaks against 4d (again), and also soaks it.
PC 5 and 6, have to soak against 3d, and 1 at 3d+1. They both barely make their soaks.

AT THIS TIME he has made 2 full streams (6 fuel uses each) one Long-range spray (4 fuels), 2 medium sprays (2 fuel uses each) and 2 short-range sprays (1 fuel use each). For a total of 6+6+4+2+2+1+1 = 22 fuel uses. He has 10 fuel uses left.

COMBAT round 5. This time the baddie wins initiative and decides to make another full stream attack, but as it is a full round action he gets no dodge afterwards. He spends his last force point, making it to where he does hit the PCs (who are doing the same as last round). His damage against PC #2 causes him to fall to incapacitation, while PC 3 and 4 each take a wound. PC 5 and 6 soak their damage. Being PC #2 who was the commanding person, is now out, one of the others has to step up to make it. But since PC 3 and 4 took wounds, they cannot act. So that leaves PC 5 and 6. Who unfortunately miss their target.
END OF ROUND RESOLUTION:
PC 2 has to make one soak at 4d+2 and takes another wound, pushing him from incap to mortally wounded. Things are not looking too good for him…
PC 4 has to soak against 3d+2, and makes it.
PC 5 and 6 each have a soak against 2d+2 and 2 against 3d+1. This time, luck is not with them and each takes a stun from ALL three rolls (3 stuns each). Being that this makes more stuns than they have strength, they fall down incapacitated.

Thinks are not looking too good for our heroes, who now, are at 1 dead, 1 mortally wounded, 3 out cold and 1 uninjured characters.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Robert]

I checked up the Aliens RPG Rules for Flamethrowers. The folowing is a picture of the ones used in Aliens 2.


Acording to the Aliens RPG Rulebok, Flamethrowers are one of the deadliest weapons available. They burn for 5 combat round, dealing 4000 PD in the frist and 800 PD in the four following rounds. The rules state that when you get dealed 4000 PD, you have a 02 percent survivalchance if your are treated nearly instantly in a medical facility.

I don´ t like the idea of backpack flamethrowers, sorry garkhal, but instead think handheld or gunsized flamethrowers are suitable for scifi scenarios.

[Ejacobs]

How does PD damage equate to D6? I like the idea of initial damage and then burning for the next 4 rounds or so, and I like the picture too. As a Jedi I don't think I would be too keen on my compatriots using these on sentients though.

E

[Robert]

Thats very complicated. In Aliens, you dont have Hitpoints. You get dealt damage that is categorized by PD, physical damage. Then you look at a table for your unconsciousness roll and another table what chance of survival yiu have compared to the total damage suffered and the medical treatment you received. Both rolls are modified by your toughness but thats irrelevant with PD that high. The Roll is D100 and if you fail youre dead.
If you get no medical treatment and are dealt 4000 PD you automatically die after 170 seconds. No roll. If you get first aid, you automatically die, but after a longer time. No roll.

Thats imho a little bit to hard for a space opera setting like Star Wars. Therefore i would stick to the statistics as presented in grys weapons stats.
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing." G.B. Shaw

[Robert]

Ok. I checked wikipedia for some information about flamethrowers and here they are excerptized for you.

Nearly no country uses military flamethrowers anymore - because they are unreliable, prone to explosion when hit by shots, and cumbersome. The WW1 german flamethrowers needed 1 carrier, 2 soldiers calibrationg the ventils and 2 guarding soldiers. Their effective range was up to 25 meters. The were propelled by a gasoline-diesel-thickening agents mix. Capacity was enough for 2 to 15 shots. They were used to frighten the enemy and to drive him out of cover, but with the limited range and the cumbersome handling they were only used twice during WW1. During WW2 more elaborate designs were in use on nearly all involved sides. Today rocketlaunchers or napalm bombing takes over the role of flamethrowers.

But: "Flamethrowers in movies are more likely to use flammable pressurized gas (such as propane) only, producing a flaming effect but with none of the spray, splatter, smoke and area effect of the genuine weapon." This could be to simulate the effects of advanced weapons without the real technology behind.

To transform this into roleplaying guidelines:

As even we, a civilization in the information age stopped using backpack flamethrowers, there is no good cause they should be used by even more advanced civilizations unless they lose ther cumberness, can be used without much training and combine enough fuel for long combats with lightness. Just think about the effectiveness of a grenade versus the cumberness of a backpack flamethrower to clear buildings. Therefore i believe the weapons as presented in Aliens or Weapon Stats are best suited for the space opera setting. Tornister flame throwers could still be bought, but possibly only form preatomic cultures.

A WW2 design of a backpack flamethrower:

The following link shows the weapon in use:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/f/ff/Flammenwerfer.jpg

Once a soldier in training tried to fire his flamethrower directly into the air, and as he burned in agony he tragically pulled the trigger and killed his instructor trying to rescue him. This weapon deals out horrible death.

By the way - in germany they are illegal to own, but you in the US could buy one at your local weapons store. Just don´t try to burn yourself...
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing." G.B. Shaw

[garhkal]

Nice link robert... But what i was looking at for a group of people using these, would be pre space age level. Like say, the rebels have to go there, chasing the BBEG, who hopes to use this low tech planet, to alude the rebels on. he hires some mercs, one (or two) of which use this backpack...
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

[Robert]

That sounds to me like a good adventure idea and campaign specific use of backpack flamethrowers. I would just fear that the players find about the weakness of the backpack too easily and use it to their advantage without reakl fighting.

Close fights where they would burn themselves too or maze-like ruins where the flamer could be used without being spotted might prevent that.
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old...we grow old because we stop playing." G.B. Shaw

[Boomer]

Don't forget the "Heat" function of some military blasters.
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My backpack has jets!
I'm Boba the Fett!
And I bounty hunt for Jabba Hutt,
to finance my 'vette!

[Ray]