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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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 Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cunning_kindred wrote: | | So - to answer your question - better for us than Lightsaber Combat is now but it wasn't enough of a reduction in power (for us) and we felt it was slightly too complicated. We wanted something simpler - though it did pave the way to a more complete martial arts system. Also, we wanted to bring the Forms into the game and it didn't seem to have quite enough flexibility to deal with seven Forms that were supposed to feel radically different. |
Not to get too far off track, but here's what I came up with for both (A)Martial Arts and (A) Lightsaber that tried not to stray from the original rules...
Lightsaber as Advanced Skill:
Lightsaber (A) is a Dex skill related to Melee Combat
Must have Melee Combat and (Melee Parry?) at 5D.
Must spend 5 Character Points to gain the first 1D in Lightsaber (A)
The first 1D in Lightsaber (A) grants one special move (see Rules of Engagement pg 116).
Improving Lightsaber (A) costs twice the number in front of the D to improve one pip.
For each +1D increase in Lightsaber (A), the player may select another special move.
When using Melee Combat to wield a lightsaber, players may add any amount of Lightsaber (A) to your Melee Combat roll. If the difficulty is missed by more than 10, the character has injured himself. Players may never add Lightsaber (A) dice to the damage rolls. The player may not use any special moves when using Melee Combat to attack or defend with a lightsaber.
Lightsaber Combat Force Power
Characters must have 1D in Lightsaber (A) before they can use the Lightsaber Combat Force Power. After activating the Lightsaber Combat Force Power, the player rolls only the Lightsaber (A) skill dice and may add Sense skill dice to the attack roll. On a successful hit, the player may increase or decrease the amount of damage with their Control skill dice. When using the lightsaber this way, the player may use any special moves in addition to basic attack/parry rolls. Characters will not injure themselves except on a critical failure (1 on the Wild Die) at the GM’s discretion.
Martial Arts as Advanced Skill:
Martial Arts (A) is a Str skill related to Brawling
Must have Brawling (and Brawling Parry?) at 5D.
Must spend 2 Character Points to gain the first 1D in Martial Arts (A)
For each D in Martial Arts (A), the player may select one special move (see Rules of Engagement)
Improving Martial Arts (A) costs twice the number in front of the D to improve one pip
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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I like the idea of Lightsaber Combat being an advanced skill under melee combat. It makes sense (oops). since a lot of the techniques would be based on sword techniques.
If lightsaber were an advanced skill, I'd suggest dropping the "if you miss by 10" rule for those who have the advanced skill. Basically, that would be the first thing the character would learn-how to wield the thing without hitting onself. Not that it happens that much at 6D+ anyway.
One thing I had thought of was breaking the Lightsaber Combat power down into two different powers. One for Sense/Skill and the second for Control/Damage. Or even Sense/Parry and Control/Attack, and tie the damage bonus to the attack roll (+1D per 5 over target difficulty). |
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | I like the idea of Lightsaber Combat being an advanced skill under melee combat. It makes sense (oops). since a lot of the techniques would be based on sword techniques.
If lightsaber were an advanced skill, I'd suggest dropping the "if you miss by 10" rule for those who have the advanced skill. Basically, that would be the first thing the character would learn-how to wield the thing without hitting onself. Not that it happens that much at 6D+ anyway.
One thing I had thought of was breaking the Lightsaber Combat power down into two different powers. One for Sense/Skill and the second for Control/Damage. Or even Sense/Parry and Control/Attack, and tie the damage bonus to the attack roll (+1D per 5 over target difficulty). |
In reply to your earlier post. Yoda had Danger Sense up. I dunno what a whatsits draw is, but if it means drawing your weapon and hitting first. That can be supported by Danger Sense and Combat Sense. Both of these force powers allow the Jedi to see what's coming and react first.
Yoda, Luke (Post-ESB), and Obi-Wan easily have enough Force Skill dice and Climb/Jump skill to overcome the MAP of hopping around the room. Climb/Jump 4D + Alter (Telekinesis) 8D -4D or 5D for the MAP.
Ok, on to the current topic...
Just wanted to point out that I explicitly stated that a Jedi who uses (A) Lightsaber and LS Combat cannot hurt himself (barring a 1 on the Wild die, GM's discretion)
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Luke - "Same as always."
Han - "That bad, huh?" |
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cunning_kindred
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 181
Location: Southampton, England
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | cunning_kindred wrote: | | So - to answer your question - better for us than Lightsaber Combat is now but it wasn't enough of a reduction in power (for us) and we felt it was slightly too complicated. We wanted something simpler - though it did pave the way to a more complete martial arts system. Also, we wanted to bring the Forms into the game and it didn't seem to have quite enough flexibility to deal with seven Forms that were supposed to feel radically different. |
Not to get too far off track, but here's what I came up with for both (A)Martial Arts and (A) Lightsaber that tried not to stray from the original rules...
Lightsaber as Advanced Skill:
Lightsaber (A) is a Dex skill related to Melee Combat
Must have Melee Combat and (Melee Parry?) at 5D.
Must spend 5 Character Points to gain the first 1D in Lightsaber (A)
The first 1D in Lightsaber (A) grants one special move (see Rules of Engagement pg 116).
Improving Lightsaber (A) costs twice the number in front of the D to improve one pip.
For each +1D increase in Lightsaber (A), the player may select another special move.
When using Melee Combat to wield a lightsaber, players may add any amount of Lightsaber (A) to your Melee Combat roll. If the difficulty is missed by more than 10, the character has injured himself. Players may never add Lightsaber (A) dice to the damage rolls. The player may not use any special moves when using Melee Combat to attack or defend with a lightsaber.
Lightsaber Combat Force Power
Characters must have 1D in Lightsaber (A) before they can use the Lightsaber Combat Force Power. After activating the Lightsaber Combat Force Power, the player rolls only the Lightsaber (A) skill dice and may add Sense skill dice to the attack roll. On a successful hit, the player may increase or decrease the amount of damage with their Control skill dice. When using the lightsaber this way, the player may use any special moves in addition to basic attack/parry rolls. Characters will not injure themselves except on a critical failure (1 on the Wild Die) at the GM’s discretion.
Martial Arts as Advanced Skill:
Martial Arts (A) is a Str skill related to Brawling
Must have Brawling (and Brawling Parry?) at 5D.
Must spend 2 Character Points to gain the first 1D in Martial Arts (A)
For each D in Martial Arts (A), the player may select one special move (see Rules of Engagement)
Improving Martial Arts (A) costs twice the number in front of the D to improve one pip |
Yes that's pretty much what I did. We also said you couldn't add more control to your damage than you had dice in (A) Lightsaber and toward the end we made that a maneuver you needed to purchase. This didn't really help much of course because it was so good everyone just purchased it anyway. Also we used the name Lightsaber Combat for the (A) advanced skill and called the force power Martial Combat --- because we allowed it to advance other suitable (a) advanced skill martial arts as well - though you had to choice which martial art was advanced when you purchased the power.
Oh, yes, we also insisted on 5D in Melee Combat and Melee Parry. You had to split the (A) Lightsaber skill between them and you could use the advanced skill to hit and parry.
| Quote: | | One thing I had thought of was breaking the Lightsaber Combat power down into two different powers. One for Sense/Skill and the second for Control/Damage. Or even Sense/Parry and Control/Attack, and tie the damage bonus to the attack roll (+1D per 5 over target difficulty). |
We tried that as well - both as separate powers and using the +1D per 5 points. The first works well enough but there is no significant improvement other than that you really should start to insist that use of the control skill for anything other than the most dire of circumstances is a dark side act. The second made it all the way through our rules editions until only a couple of editions back but generally its a bit cumbersome for during the game - Jedi take up too much of the GMs time anyway - and it didn't actually fix anything - at higher levels you still had too much of a bonus for too little cost.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Its simply cheaper/easier for most Jedi to learn Accelerate Healing and Accelerate Another's Healing than it is to raise First Aid to a comparable level of effectiveness.
The Rebellion setting/fight for survival, had most Jedi I've seen, make raising Force Powers to a reliable level thier first priority, spending the lions share of their CPs on the Force. So it was natural to do something with the Force when possible. |
Technically yes. But when you consider those who use it have to roll on the natural healing chart, which CAN make you worse off (get a low enough strength roll.
With first aid, you don't have the chance of potentially damaing them more.
| Quote: | | From a storytelling/GM perspective, this reeks of the Dark Side. The Jedi PC is spending gobs of CPs on Force Skills without the moral compass of a teacher to guide him. The GM should be tempting that PC with the Dark Side constantly. And if all he's doing is using the Force then he's constantly sending out ripples announcing his presence. This is especially dangerous during the Rebellion Era. |
Which is why the sparks group uses (and i now use) a force 'wave' ideal where the more power you push (higher dice roll) when using force powers, the greater the wave you make.
Make one potent enough and the emperor's force hunters will be on your butt.
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ggmoridin
Ensign
Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 30
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| Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:11 am Post subject: |
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an idea that lostboy and i came up with to regulate force growth was to treat the force skills as adcanced skills. we started a thread in the house rules section http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2285, tho it wasnt really descussed 
we are in the middle of play testing it with a force user and a non-force user but unfortunatly we havent played much as the other player has been to busy lately not sure if this helps ppl. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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In reply to your earlier post. Yoda had Danger Sense up. [/quote]
Still wouldn't work in RPG terms.. Since Yoda jumped first the combat, his first action in the round would be a jump. The the Clone Troopers would get their first action.
Out group had a lot of problems with Danger Sense too. It caused more problems than all the other force powers combined. We hasd a lot of silly situations where bad guys with drawn blasters couldn't shoot becuase hey didn't know something going to happen last round. The power is ridculiously powerful in the hands of a Sith or other baddie.
| Quote: |
I dunno what a whatsits draw is, but if it means drawing your weapon and hitting first. That can be supported by Danger Sense and Combat Sense. Both of these force powers allow the Jedi to see what's coming and react first. |
The problem is I don't believe that Jedi are walking around with Danger Sense up. BTW, Iai, is the skill of drawing an attacking with a Katana as a single motion. It is used for duals and "showdowns" in Samurai films much he way the "quickdraw" is a stable of Westerns.
Now, since a lot of the lightsaber stuff comes from Japanese swordmanship, and since there is a "quick draw" form of lightsaber, there should be some way to do this in the RPG.
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Yoda, Luke (Post-ESB), and Obi-Wan easily have enough Force Skill dice and Climb/Jump skill to overcome the MAP of hopping around the room. Climb/Jump 4D + Alter (Telekinesis) 8D -4D or 5D for the MAP. |
No they don't. Try running one of the fight scenes by the rules. Even with your example, you are adding TK to jump dice, instead of using one or the other.
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Ok, on to the current topic...
Just wanted to point out that I explicitly stated that a Jedi who uses (A) Lightsaber and LS Combat cannot hurt himself (barring a 1 on the Wild die, GM's discretion) |
Oops, I missed that bit. Sorry. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | BTW, Iai, is the skill of drawing an attacking with a Katana as a single motion. It is used for duals and "showdowns" in Samurai films much he way the "quickdraw" is a stable of Westerns. |
IIRC there is a quick draw skill that allows you to split your dice pool and add it to initiave and the remainder is used to shoot... could work for melee/lightsabers as well.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | BTW, Iai, is the skill of drawing an attacking with a Katana as a single motion. It is used for duals and "showdowns" in Samurai films much he way the "quickdraw" is a stable of Westerns. |
IIRC there is a quick draw skill that allows you to split your dice pool and add it to initiave and the remainder is used to shoot... could work for melee/lightsabers as well. |
I know. The only problem using it with melee/lightsaber is that a character who "quickdraws" can only do quickdraws for the round. Technically that means no lightsaber combat. In fact, Even keeping the power up from the previous round would nix it.
And I think Obi-wan parries a blaster shot in the Mos Eisley Catina. |
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Let me ask this:
Does one have to have a Lightsaber drawn to have LS combat up?
Perhaps Obi-Wan had LS combat up before he drew his lightsaber.
Just a thought.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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In a bar??
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Grimace
Captain
Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 729
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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| Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, probably the moment he made it into town. Remember his words to Luke before they entered? "Mos Eisely. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany."
He knew the place as bad, warned Luke that they had to watch their steps in the town. So bar or not, he was ready for pretty much anything. Chances are, Obi Wan had Danger Sense and Combat Sense all fired up along with his Lightsaber combat. That's why he went over to bail Luke out of trouble. He wasn't trying to be nice to the rotten scum at the bar. He was trying to protect Luke from what he knew was an impending attack. |
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Very well stated.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | Let me ask this:
Does one have to have a Lightsaber drawn to have LS combat up?
Perhaps Obi-Wan had LS combat up before he drew his lightsaber.
Just a thought. |
Considering that he warned Luke to watch his step, I could see Obi-Wan having Danger Sense up while in the Catina. and then activating LS combat the round before the fighting started. Technically LS Combat says that it is activated at "the start of a battle", but I could see the round before as being close enough for the spirit of the rule. But...
Even so things don7t work. The "my turn, your turn" sequencing using in 2nd edition just don't hold up for many scenese.
And, since Obi-wan does parry, that eliminates the "quickdraw" rules. Basically the scene is a quickdraw in the classic sense.
I suppose the fix would be to allow quickdrawing character to parry with a lightsaber since ithey are using the same skill (unlike characters who dodge).
But, every Jedi fight scene now needs the same thing to work, and I just don't buy the "he had Danger Sense up" excuse for everything. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | Here's a spreadsheet I worked up...
Jedi vs Melee
I'll add some commentary tomorrow when I'm not half-asleep  |
Sorry I'm late on responding to this. Some points of contention.
1) Why doesn't the Jedi work on getting his lightsaber skill up? Since lightsaber is used for both attack and parry, it essentially covers both melee weapons and melee parry skills. So even if the Jedi is paying double due to the lack of a teacher, he is still breaking even. Factor in the need for both characters to defend against blasters and the Jedi actually comes out ahead, since lightsaber now handles dodge. Considering that failure to wield a lightsaber effectively is dangerous to a Jedi, all our Jedi PCs raised this skill at least as fast as Force Skills.
2) Teachers get harder for the melee character to find too. While it'S easy to find a teacher at low dice codes, by the time the character hits 6-7D and starts becoming the best character in an area, it gets tougher to find a melee weapon teacher.
This is where the Jedi start to pass the "normals". AQt a point, the Melee fighter must pay double cost to raise two skills. The Jedi can just focus on LIghtsaber skill for a bit and work on Sense at the same point cost. This means the JEdi is improving his attacks and parries by 2 pips each for the same Cps it takes the melee fighter to improve each 1 pip. |
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