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vanir Jedi
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Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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We're fairly ambiguous about precisely how big one "space" is, but use the "normal round vs combat round" concept, where most actions take one minute and don't always require a roll, but under the pressure of combat take five seconds and must always be rolled.
A normal sensor sweep then takes one minute or longer, the signal radiates, is bounced and then processed and in that time looks roughly ten times the normal range during a system sweep.
This way you can do your Star Trek style exploration and discovery as well as close combat style space engagements.
I also use a BVR system for starfighter combat (med range or more, enemy starfighters have to be painted to target, which may involve an ECM/ECCM battle).
Starship battle systems for capital ships require reactor power output adjustment and aren't as easy as for small transports and the like. I use the rules for getting starships to flying condition from a cold start as a guideline.
A space transport might take 1 minute normally to go from docking to the high speed condition. A cruiser is going to take at least three minutes.
You can use your command skill to combine actions equal to the total normal crew, if successful a space transports repair or capital ships repair roll can modify the engineering protocols to fire up weapons and shields sooner, but the truth is you cannot get around the time it takes for crew members to get to their stations on a large ship.
So cruisers take a minimum of one minute if successfully commanded to change their ready-state whilst freighters and starfighters can do it in as little as one combat round, subject to circumstance.
My ready-states are thus:
Docking and repair mode (skeleton crew, no guns manned)
Patrol and cruise mode (skeleton crew, 20% guns manned)
General Quarters manoeuvre and emergency mode (full crew, 20% guns manned).
Battle Stations combat mode (full crew, all guns manned). |
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Bren Vice Admiral
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Mon May 16, 2011 10:31 am Post subject: |
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ZzaphodD wrote: | Haha, dont get me started on detection ranges...going at full speed most ships would have about 5-10 seconds to react and change course if they detect a planet in its path.... | I know it's a problem and the problem is one of the reasons we tend not to try to use actual distances or hex maps to handle space combat.
vanir wrote: | ...A normal sensor sweep then takes one minute or longer, the signal radiates, is bounced and then processed and in that time looks roughly ten times the normal range during a system sweep. | However, you have increased the time for a sweep from one 5 second round to 60 seconds (12x) but you have only increased the distance scanned to 10x. You are actually increasing the problem of ships that fly faster than their sensors can scan, which I infer from the rest of your post, was not your intent. |
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Fallon Kell Commodore
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 3:32 am Post subject: |
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I'd use the skeleton crew difficulties. I don't know how long it would take to man battlestations. That would take research... _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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vanir Jedi
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Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 7:01 am Post subject: |
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On the Andromeda series which is a battlecruiser, under two minutes was good, over two minutes was bad. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14071 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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In the navy, it depends on the ship.
Carriers - 5 min or less is standard.
A cruiser (guided missile) its 3 mini
2 for destroyers.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Bren Vice Admiral
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | In the navy, it depends on the ship.
Carriers - 5 min or less is standard.
A cruiser (guided missile) its 3 mini
2 for destroyers.. | but what is the real world detection range for say an incoming fighter or cruise missile? Kind of hoping they have a chance to detect it, go to alert, and react before they are toast.
That's the problem in Star Wars. Even ignoring the threat of a ship dropping in from hyperspace, the detection range is very short in normal space compared to the ship space speeds. Maybe that's why an Imperial Star Destroyer has a crew of 36,810. The huge crew allows constant readiness at full crew and potential replacement of battle casualties, but then operating at less than a full crew. |
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vanir Jedi
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Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:23 am Post subject: |
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In the real world you start having problems with detecting all aerial threats out at around 100km, but you use pickets for high value warships like command-cruisers and carriers, these might be 50-150km which gives you an umbrella in the 500km range. Some Russian antiship missiles have about that range but they need a fire control aircraft to bounce the datalink.
Currently some of the recently refit Russian surface action warships have a phased point defence system perfectly capable of handling a massed missile assault on the ship from various launch platforms air, sea and land at close range (within 5km) with little warning (automated networked defence system). The initial phase of this system can launch its entire magazine of 192 SAMs in under 30 seconds (12-15km range).
Then you have individually tracking Kashtan stations, with twin quad launch tubes (5-8km range on these fast-tracking little buggers) and twin 30mm gatling, lethal out to about 1.5km.
Finally the CIWS is a number of 30mm gatling with independent fire directors.
The entire system has a central network in the combat information centre and aircraft are tracked with every kind of sensor suite, from thermal imaging to various radars. The area surrounding the ship is divided into sectors and up to four individual targets will be tracked per sector using multichannel phased arrays.
You could literally pop out of nowhere and suddenly toss hundreds of missiles and aircraft at something like the Kuznetsov and it'll probably shoot them all down and fire one of its silo launched gigantic antiship "battlegroup busters" at you.
Then launch a Flanker just to rub it in. |
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Fallon Kell Commodore
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 1:35 am Post subject: |
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vanir wrote: |
You could literally pop out of nowhere and suddenly toss hundreds of missiles and aircraft at something like the Kuznetsov and it'll probably shoot them all down and fire one of its silo launched gigantic antiship "battlegroup busters" at you.
Then launch a Flanker just to rub it in. |
Yeah, but then they could never afford to re-arm after that!
I think that about 5 minutes is appropriate for a Star Destroyer-sized craft, but I also like the idea that Star Destroyers themselves are kept at full readiness at all times, otherwise they would be extremely vulnerable to strike and fade attacks from cruisers. _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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vanir Jedi
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Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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I respect individual gaming style but I was thinking along the lines that all ships crews in regular navies simply cannot man their battle stations 24/7, it's just not going to happen. Just about every crew member has a post during battle stations for example, but during normal operations you'll have about a third of that actually manning stations and others sleeping, eating, exercising, attending various mundane duties, most of the time a ship is run like a community specifically because it is relatively isolated for weeks or months at a time. Between missions recreational leave is a high priority for crew health and the ship will visit civilian tour locations during a sortie.
Normal running is really your cruise configuration, only certain stations are fully manned even on combat patrol (unless a high threat environ), no significant ships crew can simply function at a state of combat readiness for too long without relief shifts. But what ships do is they use full crew during combat and function on much fewer the rest of the time so they act more like a sustainable community (assuming you keep it stocked). |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14071 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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True.. though i see the isds and such as splitting their crews up so they CAN maintain specific areas at battle ready at all times.. such as CIC, bridge, engineering and the gun spots. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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vanir Jedi
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Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Well the gun spots are the real trick, and reactor power levels.
Gun stations aren't designed to be comfortable and the very role of the general staff (usually the first officer) is to ensure the health and morale of the crew, he has equal authority to the commander in this sphere by enforcing such rules as maximum on station times without breaks.
And starship reactors (like old world boilers and turbines) just aren't designed to run around at flank all day long. For one it cuts your patrol short because it burns all your consumables (fuel and machinery oil in the real world, even nukes run out of regular stuff the ship needs).
I would adjudicate that the consumables rate and thus range listed is for normal projected operations, generally performed at 50-75% power output depending on configuration. Most capital warships thus function on skeleton crews, I'd say most definitely with minimum guns manned for most of the time unless patrolling a combat zone (ie. expecting an encounter), in which case full crew for long periods but full guns armed only during battle stations or a drill (ship at general quarters in other words, ready to man weapons on command, all other systems ready).
So you'd have the basic 1-3min battle stations drill for fully manned weapons in our system.
But you can catch Imperial warships near the core worlds simply functioning at cruise on private hyperspace lanes and more powerful warships can easily afford to function at skeleton difficulties (which are usually minimal anyway), for most of the patrol. It's just realistic for a functioning navy.
Otherwise terms of service would have to be high turnover, changing worn crews every six months or progressively losing skills due to combat fatigue. I mean it's like basically saying you're going to be one of those commanders who expects his crew to perform like machines with an on/off switch and never eat/rest/fraternise and cop surprise drills every few hours. They'd lynch you. |
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Esoomian High Admiral
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Joined: 29 Oct 2003 Posts: 6207 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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So while a droid ship might have lower effectiveness than a ship crewed by flesh and blood beings it would be combat ready much faster and suffer less from a surprise attack. _________________ Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16217 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Esoomian wrote: | So while a droid ship might have lower effectiveness than a ship crewed by flesh and blood beings it would be combat ready much faster and suffer less from a surprise attack. |
Maybe a ship could split the difference and have systems able to run on automatic (i.e. droid crewmembers) until the station is manned by a normal crewman _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Esoomian High Admiral
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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That seems fairly logical to me.
In which case you'd just have two skill ratings the automated systems skill rating and the trained crew skill rating so a surprised ship would run on it's automated ratings until the crew was able to get to their stations.
The time taken for this changeover could probably be worked out by a tactics roll (or perhaps an opposed tactics roll against those trying to launch the surprise attack). _________________ Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
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Bren Vice Admiral
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2011 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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crmcneill wrote: | Esoomian wrote: | So while a droid ship might have lower effectiveness than a ship crewed by flesh and blood beings it would be combat ready much faster and suffer less from a surprise attack. |
Maybe a ship could split the difference and have systems able to run on automatic (i.e. droid crewmembers) until the station is manned by a normal crewman | Both ideas seem reasonable but generally counter to what we see in Star Wars. It seems only the CIS had ships with mixed crews of this type (mostly droid with some biologics). The prejudice post Clone Wars is against battle droids and none of the Star Wars ships that we see in the films are intelligent/self-aware or possessed of single ship-wide supercomputers a la Star Trek. So this seems unlikely for most forces in Star Wars. But hey if you want some variant sort of thing, go for it. Might be a useful choice for some enterprising rebels. |
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