Legacy of the Force Sourcebook: Taking any help I can get

[Forceally]

Control breathing for Nelani Dinn? Interesting choice. About the only other Jedi I know of who knows that power is Cay Qel-Droma. Not saying it's a good or bad decision on your part. Just interesting.

I also think you need to touch up on the formatting in your previous post.

[dhawk]

Edited her stats to make it a little easier to read. The Lorrdians have a lot of text regarding kinetic communication, including a difficulty chart which doesn't seem to paste well from Word.

Betrayal doesn't really reveal many of the abilities that Nelani had, just that Jacen was her instructor in lightsaber combat, which explains why I gave her a higher lightsaber stat than I normally would for a comparable Jedi. But she was easier to build than Jaina, considering Nelani's fate in the first book.

[dhawk]

My next stat project to tackle will be Tahiri Veila. This one I definitely need some help on.

Since she combined her personality with that of the Riina Kwaad personality that the Yuuzhan Vong implanted, should she still reflect some of the Yuuzhan Vong knowledge and skills? On top of that, the only Dark Side power I'm aware that she has used in LOTF was force lightning. The powers that Jacen demonstrated didn't seem to be taught to her (Flow Walking is the most prominent example; while she was able to perceive it with Jacen, she didn't seem to be able to perform it on her own). What Dark Side/Sith powers would she have learned?

[Forceally]

Tahiri - the Mrs. Anakin Solo who never came to be.

With her, you need to consider several things. First, she grew up with the Tuskens. So she should have some of their skills. I'd say melee combat: gaderffi stick, beast riding, survival: desert, and languages: Tusken.

As for the Yuuzhan Vong, what was done to her can never be undone. She should have alien species: Yuuzhan Vong, cultures: Yuuzhan Vong, languages: Yuuzhan Vong, and Yuuzhan biotechnology. The last was first created at the SWRPGNetwork, and its the Mechanical skill necessary to operate Yuuzhan Vong craft. In fact, I believe all the survivors of the Myrkr raid should have this skill, and that includes Jaina. Considering how they worked on the Vong ship in Dark Journey, Jaina and Lowie might also have Yuuzhan Vong biotechnology repair - the corresponding technical skill. Getting back to Tahiri, while Jacen was traveling about, she spent five years on Zonama Sekot. Even though she hadn't used those skills since Dark Nest, her die code in those skills should be high.

The only dark side powers she knows are Force lightning and presumably any prerequisite dark side powers. Specifically, injure/kill and inflict pain.

She doesn't know any of Jacen's unique powers.

Her willpower, on the other hand, should be lower than normal. She was tortured by the Vong in Conquest and SBS. She lost Anakin in SBS. She was influenced by the Killiks. She was manipulated by Jacen. In every case, she was broken. She even said so in Outcast. Her willpower should be reduced to reflect these incidents. However, given how she can tolerate more pain than a normal human might, maybe she should have a bonus to her willpower that comes into play whenever she's enduring great pain?

Speaking of willpower, when you did Jaina's willpower, did you reflect how she was broken in SBS and the impact of the influence of the Killiks?

[dhawk]

Again, I owe you a debt of graditude. Thank you for your input!

For Tahiri, I agree with including her Tusken background, as well as her Yuuzhan Vong abilities. The merger of personalities, her general expertise during the NJO, plus the time spent on Zonama Sekot, is more than enough justification. Likewise for her knowledge of dark side powers; force lightning was the only one I recall, but she clearly used it.

As for the rest of the Myrkr survivors (including Jaina), I see it more of a generalization use of an attribute/skill versus a full-fledged specialization (then again, maybe it would be approprate as Yuuzhan Vong biotech piloting: coralskipper instead of a broad skill). The coralskipper Jaina piloted in Dark Journey was out of desperation; there were many functions on the coralskipper that probably weren't identified, although they did know that the craft was dying. But it's certainly something to consider.

The willpower skill does pose an intriguing dilemma. I wouldn't knock down a character's willpower skill, but I would certainly apply penalties to the skill and/or attributes based on traumatic events. It's difficult for me to gauge permanent dice loss when it comes to the willpower skill in d6; Call of Cthulhu simplifies it in terms of sanity loss based on trauma, but there's no real equivalent in d6.

I based Jaina's willpower skill mostly on what she endured during the Yuuzhan Vong War. The first three to four years on the frontlines with Rogue Squadron seem to have hardened her resolve a great deal. Even at her lowest with regard to Star By Star's events (namely Anakin's death and her belief that Jacen was dead as well), the events did push her to the dark side, but they didn't necessarily break her will. She seemed quite stubborn across the books, fitting to her personality. The Dark Nest events I would chalk up to the Killiks; it would apply penalities, but not a knockdown of her willpower skill.

Tahiri, on the other hand, doesn't seem to be quite as "hard-headed." But she does seem prone to being influenced in some way (Anakin's death, the Yuuzhan Vong personality merge, becoming Caedus' apprentice, and even being drawn back in to the Jedi Order by Ben (Invincible) and Jaina from bounty hunter into the Darkmeld (FOTJ). In her build, she won't have a strong willpower skill to reflect this.

[Forceally]

In regards to Jaina and Yuuzhan biotechnology, IIRC, she flew a frigate-type ship in DJ. That would make it a capital ship. A minor detail, but there's a world of difference between a capital ship and a starfighter.

As for the willpower, I just found some evidence that would suggest Tahiri's willpower be affected by events. I have the Thrawn Trilogy Sourcebook. As you might recall, Joruus C'Baoth used the Force to control Pellaeon's thoughts and decision making for a time. I looked up Pellaeon's stats, and as of the Battle of Sluis Van Shipyards, he had a willpower of 7D. As of the Battle of Bilbringi, it was 5D, and there was a note that the skill had been reduced due to the effects of Joruus C'Baoth's mind-tampering powers. Now in the years since then, Pellaeon probably rebuilt his willpower back up to 7D or even higher.

As far as Tahiri's willpower goes, you gave Nelani 5D and started Jaina off with 6D. All things considered, I think I would give Tahiri less than 5D in willpower. Not nice, but she's been traumatized over and over again.

Two more things, and you can relay them to Treefrog and the others. First, on SWRPGNetwork, Armage Bedar have posted d6 conversions for the Solo/Skywalker family based on their OCRB stats in the Core Rulebook and possibly the NJOSB. Have you looked upon these conversions for guidance, or have you chosen to disregard these previous stats and conversions in light of the Saga rules?

Second, Jacen's esoteric powers are going to be discussed in this work. Some of these powers have been associated with specific Force traditions, but we don't know the full listing of these powers. More of them might be revealed in future books. Are you planning to delay releasing this until the last book of the FOTJ comes out, or are you planning to update this work in light of what might be revealed in future books? In this case, I don't know which course might be more preferable. Pursuing the latter would mean repeated edits over a period of time. Pursuing the former would avoid the extra work, but it would mean holding off on the release for however long it takes to finish the series. Considering how they've been delaying the release of Backlash, primarily because of circumstances beyond anyone's control, we're looking for a release for this work no sooner than 2012.

[dhawk]

Good catch on the frigate. Seems I'm forgeting more and more of NJO day by day.

Just checked out Armage Bedar's conversions on SWRPGNetwork. They looked pretty close to the mark, actually, with a few stats higher and/or lower in places. I actually based my stats off of a d6 site that built up stats for the Rogue Squadron characters, along with Dark Empire, the Young Jedi Knights (where I started with some base-line stats for Jaina), etc. I'm not sure if Armage runs that site, but the stats look pretty similar.

I don't necessarily want to step on Armage's toes (or anyone else's that have done conversions for that matter), but in light of the SAGA rules (and the lack of a Second NJO sourcebook for d20/RD20), it might be simpler to establish a new base-line for the NJO characters. Ultimately, it's up to Treefrog and his partner on the project (I'm just doing some freelance contributing). He hasn't approved my character builds yet, so I'll defer to him.

I do remember that Treefrog stated that the project was going no further than Invincible, so I guessing whatever is revealed in FOTJ might be a project for a future date.

[Forceally]

First off, the website you're talking about. Was it this site: http://www.geocities.com/nridatabase/index.htm

I checked there, and it's no longer available. I found that site some time ago, and if you were able to get your info from it and make a word document containing the stats on the site, so much the better. If so, could you e-mail me a copy? If this isn't the website, can you tell show me the site in question?

Second, I think I didn't express myself correctly last time. Consider the two scenarios.
1. We know that Jacen learned that Dathomiri spell that creates a ball of light and the Nightsister blood trail. Now, in Backlash, suppose we learn that he knew of a few other spells. Spells that he might have demonstrated. Spells that he might not have demonstrated. In light of this, his stats in this work should be updated to reflect this - add the new spells to the powers he knew and possibly increase his Force skills die accordingly.
2. Suppose this work was released three months after Invincible was published. We know of some exotic powers, like the one Jacen used to fool the brain scanner in TJK, but we didn't know the specifics. Thanks to Outcast, we now know it was the ayna-seff ability. The name could now be added to the list, and his Force die codes can be adjusted accordingly.

I know it's not going past Invincible, but since one of the plotlines behind FOTJ is Luke and Ben learning about the powers Jacen learned during his 5 year journey, and since Jacen demonstrated these powers in Dark Nest and LOTF, FOTJ is inexorably linked to this work. See where I'm coming from?

I don't know if you know this, but Luke knew about the Theran Listeners from Planet of Twilight, so they're not exactly a brand new group. At the fansite Saga Edition RPG Databank at saga-edition.com, someone came up with a Theran Listeners talent tree. Perhaps you and Treefrog should look at that since it's mentioned that Jacen learned Theran Force-listening, and Luke demonstrated the same power in VOTF.

[dhawk]

That's the site I was referring to. It was up about four months ago; it's sad to see it go. I'm glad I saved what it had to offer. I sent you a PM regarding this.

I see your point regarding the FOTJ series and Jacen's stats. I don't disagree with you there, but I'm not sure what Treefrog plans to do regarding FOTJ's tie-in with the previous books.

I don't plan on tackling Jacen's stats, my reasoning being based off of trying to brew/convert all of the crazy abilities he learned during his five-year journey (and I don't think I can at this point). I think Treefrog will probably end up stating Jacen out.

With the sheer amount of detailed information you've provided, assuming that you're not onboard already, might I invite you to assist Treefrog's cause?

[Forceally]

I got your message. Fortunately, I managed to find another link to the stuff at that site in another site. An archive site of sorts.

As for me joining up, I'm more into providing info and being a critic. I don't really know how to assign dice and increase them over time. You and Treefrog are making the stats as of the hardcovers. I might have considered doing it for every book. See how much of a difference that is? If it were done my way, Jacen and Jaina would probably be as strong as Kyp is now, and would definitely give Luke a run for his money in the Force skill die department.

I've been providing opinions for the Clone Wars Sourcebook at the fandomcomics website. And I'm currently working to get MCAS certification in Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, and Outlook.

[Treefrog]

[Treefrog]

[Treefrog]

For example, here's my rendition of Luke Skywalker, as of Invincible

Luke Skywalker
Type: Jedi Grand Master
DEXTERITY 3D+2
Blaster 7D+2, brawling parry 8D+1, dodge 12D, lightsaber 14D+1, melee combat 11D+1, melee parry 11D
KNOWLEDGE 3D
Alien species 7D, bureaucracy 7D+2, cultures 6D+2, intimidation 8D, languages 7D+2, planetary systems 7D, scholar 8D+1, scholar: Jedi lore 12D+2, streetwise 7D+2, survival 9D+2, value 7D, willpower 11D
MECHANICAL 4D
Astrogation 9D, beast riding 6D+2, beast riding: tauntaun 7D, communications 7D, repulsorlift operation 11D, repulsorlift operation: airspeeder 12D, space transports 8D, starfighter piloting 11D, starfighter piloting: X-Wing 13D, starship gunnery 9D, starship shields 7D+2
PERCEPTION 3D
Bargain 6D+1, command 12D, con 5D+1, hide 8D+1, search 8D, sneak 8D+1
STRENGTH 3D+2
Brawling 8D, climbing/jumping 9D, lifting 7D, stamina 10D
TECHNICAL 3D
Computer programming/repair 7D+1, droid programming 7D+1, droid repair 7D, droid repair: astromech 8D+2, first aid 6D, lightsaber repair 11D, repulsorlift repair 8D+1, security 6D, space transports repair 6D, starfighter repair 8D
Special Abilities:
Force Skills: Control 17D, Sense 15D+2, Alter 14D+1
Force Powers:
Control: absorb/dissipate energy, accelerate healing, concentration, control pain, detoxify poison, emptiness, enhance attribute, hibernation trance, immerse*, instinctive astrogation – control, reduce injury, remain conscious, resist stun, short-term memory enhancement
Sense: combat sense, danger sense, instinctive astrogation - sense, life detection, life sense, magnify senses, receptive telepathy, sense Force, sense Force potential, shatterpoint sense¹, shatterpoint strike¹
Alter: injure/kill, telekinesis
Control and Sense: farseeing, lightsaber combat, projective telepathy
Control and Alter: control another's pain, electric judgment², immerse another*, inflict pain, place another in hibernation trance
Control, Sense, and Alter: affect mind, doppleganger, force harmony, telekinetic kill
Sense and Alter: dim other's senses, lesser Force shield
*described in Cracken’s Threat Dossier (pg 58)
¹found in Clone Wars Campaign Guide (pg. 59, converted by Gry Sarth and Cheshire).
²Described in Chapter 1: Heroic Traits
This character is Force Sensitive.
Force Points: 25
Dark Side Points: 4
Character Points: 61
Move: 10
Equipment: lightsaber (5D), shoto (4D), Jedi robes, StealthX

[Treefrog]

Here's what's still needed [as of today] (SE, D6, or both):

Chapter 2 - GFFA:

Heol Girdun both

Chapter 3 - Confederation:

Durr Gejjen both
Sadras Koyan both
Denjax Teppler both
Supreme Cmdr Turr Phenir D6

Chapter 4 - Jedi Coalition:

Chume’da Allana Djo D6
Valin Horn D6
Kolir Hu’lya both
Jaden Korr D6
Sanola Ti D6
Thann Mithric both
Ben Skywalker D6
Leia Organa Solo D6
Tiu Zax both
Zekk D6
Cilghal D6
Kyp Durron D6
Corran Horn D6
Kyle Katarn D6
Mara Jade Skywalker D6
Saba Sebatyne D6
Tresina Lobi both
Kenth Hamner D6
Octa Ramis both
Kam Solusar D6
Tionne Solusar D6

Chapter 5 - The Sith Returns:

Alema Rar D6
Darth Caedus D6
Lumiya, Dark Lady of the Sith D6
Tahiri Veila D6

Chapter 6 - The Fringe:

Aurra Sing D6
Booster Terrik D6
Jagged Fel D6

Chapter 8 - Galactic Gazetteer:

Korriban D6
Lorrd D6
Mandalore D6
Ossus D6
Taris D6
Sokolm D6
Terephon D6
Ziost D6
Zonama Sekot D6

Chapter 9 - Vehicles and Starships:

Anakin Solo D6
Bothan Assault Cruiser D6
Bothan Frigate D6
Errant Venture D6

Chapter 10 - Droids:

R6-Series Astromechs SE
R9-Series Astromechs both

[Forceally]

Treefrog, I understand where you're coming from about getting this thing finished and published. Gry Sarth and cheshire are probably feeling the same way about their conversions.

Also, I agree that the Aing-Tii flow-walking is perhaps the hardest Force power to create stats for. Possibly because of how Jacen used it in TJK to let his mother know where to go when she arrived some time later. First off, you have to consider the prerequisites. From one perspective, it seems like a very exotic variation of farseeing. That would suggest that farseeing and its prerequisites are necessary prerequisites for flow-walking. But then you learn more about flow-walking in Invincible. It doesn't allow a Jedi to change the events of the past. It allows a Jedi to change another's memories of the past, and the closest established Force powers that deals with altering memories are affect mind and memory wipe. Affect mind would be another prerequisite, but what else is there?

Next, there's establishing the difficulty. Considering what it does, I seeit a Control, Sense, and Alter power. Don't know about Control and Sense, but I do have these thoughts about Alter. The Alter difficulty would depend on what one did with this power. If one were to just look into the past or future - i.e. use flow-walking in the same manner as farseeing - either there should be no Alter difficulty or have the Alter difficulty be very easy. Shaping the course of the future, like Jacen did in TJK, would be harder than changing the memories of the past because the past has already been established. I also think the difficulty would be higher if one were to take someone else with him or her while flow-walking.

I know that you found a site where the details of this power has already been established. I'm just letting you know my thoughts in case you're unable to secure permission from them and you have to come up with your own version of it.

I like Luke's stats, but I have two questions about them. First off, in the Jedi Academy Training Manual, his stats has the lightsaber power fluid riposte listed. I know that these lightsaber powers aren't true powers, but how did you treat that - calculate it into his lightsaber die? I think that's what I would do, as well as make a note to myself that he knows the lightsaber form associated with this lightsaber power.

Second, in Planet of Twilight, he studied under the Theran Listeners. The only power associated with the Theran Listeners that he demonstrated is the one called Theran Force-listening. It's mentioned in the Wookiepedia for the record. I think he used this power in Vision of the Future in order to help understand the Qom Jha and the Qom Qae on Nirauan. I also think Mara learned this by the end of the novel. This is also one of the powers Jacen learned during his sojourn, and the Wook stated that Jaina also used this in Revelation. Fortunately, the prerequisites are easy to establish. I think this is a Sense power, and its prerequisites are translation, magnify senses, and their associated prerequisites.