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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Obi-Jon-Kaliburr wrote: |
Now, my entirely personal ruling in this scenario would be to treat each set as a single trooper, but capable of causing weapons damage equal to the most common firearm x the number of troopers. Likewise, the set can sustain four times the injuries of a single trooper. The Jedi can therefore hypothetically kick the @$$ of four Imperial Stormtroopers with a very few swings of his lightsabre, but he's in trouble if he botches his rolls...
The result would be less dice rolling and more opportunity for the player to verbally dramatise the battle, standing up and swinging his arms about, having some healthy, cathartic fun  |
That is an interesting suggestion, like having hte enemy use combined fire rules for both soak, to hit, damage and dodge..
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Delkarnu
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 189
Location: Saratoga Springs, Upstate NY
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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and instead of MAPs, for simpler enemies, roll against their dodge or parry, beat the defense by 0-3 one is hit, 4-6 two are hit, 7-9 three hits, 10+ hit the group. Roll one damage vs one STR+armor, all hit take that level of damage. They get +1D to their rolls for simple combined actions.
12 Stormies vs 4 players, they get split into 3 groups of four, left middle, right. 1st player pours blaster fire into the left group, beats their dodge by 6, he rolls 10 above their str+armor, two are incapacitated, two made their dodge.
2nd player charges in with lightsaber combat, which Stormies aren't good at defending, beats the score by 9, and rolls enough damage to take down three of them.
3rd player's wookie goes smashing in with 6D str and a few skill D in a brawling attack. Wounds all four.
4th player plays cleanup, shoots at group 1 and 2, takes a map, but beats the dodge of both groups, taking down the three healthy stormtroopers.
No stormtroopers can act. Wookie easily finishes off his four wounded guards in round two.
I think this could work, I like it.
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Lostboy
Commander
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:09 am Post subject: 3rd ed mechanics |
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My intent is to make the system compatible with 2ed RE, so as to not require reworking of existing characters and equipment e.t.c.
I have decided to do the force mechanics after i have finished the core mechanics as the force will be a big job and i feel i deserves my full attension. |
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 3:25 am Post subject: Re: 3rd ed mechanics |
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| Lostboy wrote: | My intent is to make the system compatible with 2ed RE, so as to not require reworking of existing characters and equipment e.t.c.
I have decided to do the force mechanics after i have finished the core mechanics as the force will be a big job and i feel i deserves my full attension. |
I too am working on rule changes while trying to keep data from the WEG books compatible, at least for the most part.
I originally posted this in the Official Rules Section by mistake, in the Space Combat Bugs thread and would like some opinions on it as I have done a few mock combats but haven't really playtested it yet though I am gearing up to do so currently and would like to hear possible problems, if I could.
from the other thread:
| Orion wrote: | WEG states that particle shields only work on physical objects and that they are already added into the hull codes, but on p127 2nd R&E in the example under starship weapons it says, 'Any laser cannon attacks that hit the freighter roll against the YT-1300's combined 6D hull code and sheilds.' This contradicts the statement about particle shields, though I assume this is how everyone runs it.
What I'm thinking about doing is relegating the particle shields to their stated purpose, so in the quoted example only 4D would used against lasers. I want to create a Space Transport Scale at 8D (Starfighter is 6D and Capital is 12D) so when facing fighters they gain back the 2D in scale dice. I also want to split scales into Size/Toughness and Weapons, so that they each have their own scales. This would keep Space Transport firing at Starfighter exactly as it is now, because the weapon firing is Starfighter scale and it's firing at the same scale, but in reverse the Starfighter would have an easier time hitting the Space Transport, but be rolling against the same damage resistance it always has. I was thinking of using MoS (Margin of Success) on the to-hit, for every 5 points you beat the difficulty you get a +1 to damage.
Example: Lets use the Falcon/Tie scene from Ep. IV. The ties shooting at the Falcon would get +2D scale dice to their to-hit rolls because their weapons are Starfighter (6D) shooting at a Space Transport (8D). The Falcon get +2D scale dice added to it's Hull Code but loses the 2D from the particle shields as they don't effect energy weapons. So the falcons Hull Code is 6D vs Starfighter energy weapons the same as it has always been. We set the Quad Lasers on it at Starfigher (6D) scale and they shoot at the ties with no Scale dice.
Now this will make Starfighter scale torpedoes/missiles less effective by 2D against Space Transports, so they will be slightly more survivable against them, but I don't think this is a bad thing. As a side note, I see no reason that the Falcon's Missiles couldn't be Space Transport Scale (8D) making them 2D more effective against Capital Ships and slightly more difficult to target on Starfighters. This would give more of a reason for the Falcon to have made the tunnel run against the second Death Star. It had heavier weapons, instead of it fits in the tunnel....barely.
The effect on Capital Ships would be that Starfighter energy weapons would be 2D more effective, due to the loss of the particle shields in the Hull Code. When Capital Ships shoot at Space Transports they will be 2D easier for them to hit, and the Capital weapons would lose 2D in scale dice for damage, but the Space Transport would also lose 2D from it's Hull code due to the loss of Particle Shields. Which should effectively be a wash in damage difference.
Particle shields would have to be limited to Space Transports and Capital Ships, so even Starfighters that have Shields don't have Particle Shields, they only have Energy Shields, as things would get a bit wonky if they did.
Breaking apart the scale also makes it possible to have custom scales for things. For instance, a Tie is about half the size of an X-wing so you could give the Tie a (5D) size and have it have (6D) weapons if you wanted to. Doing so would make it marginally harder to hit but even less survivable. The Skipray Blastboat comes to mind as needing to be reworked with this method.
That's about it, so good, bad, or indifferent, let me know what you think. |
In that thread Delkarnu mentioned that he would like for starfighters to be able to target specific systems that would be considered the same scale as the starfighters (sensors, individual weapons, etc.) While I don't have rules that are that detailed, I do have rules that I developed for characters that can be used with vehicles to 'affect' Capital Ships with Starfighters.
I call them Cumulative Damage rules, they were born out of my dislike of hitting someone but doing no damage at all. I got my idea from the affected stun rule, here's how it works. When a character is hit but soaks the damage they take cumulative damage (bruising, grazes, whatever you want to call it). It's not enough to be considered a wound but is never the less trauma to the body. If the character is wearing armor then the damage must beat the armor resist roll (I use different color dice to represent the armor dice in the strength test), if it doesn't then no cumulative damage is taken. For every three points of cumulative damage you take your stunned (so your stunned at 3, 6, 9, etc.). Cumulative damage only happens on soaks so if a normal wound happens then there is no cumulative damage from that. For simplicities sake you get ride of cumulative damage exactly the same as affected stuns and stuns from cumulative damage do count toward the affected stun limit.
Now they can be used with vehicles/starships as well, but since vehicles/starships have no armor you use shield dice (if they apply to the attack type, and the vehicle has them) and scale dice (if there are any, since we are talking about the damage resistance test, scale dice only appear when shooting at a larger scale)and you have to beat the total of both together if a vehicle/starship gets both. When dealing with the same scale or smaller any soak gives cumulative damage and for every three you use the Blown Shields/Controls Ionized result. Now I haven't tested them with vehicles/starships, but I don't see why they wouldn't work. |
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Lostboy
Commander
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:39 am Post subject: |
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Your rescaling and use of partical sheilds seem to balance each other out, but consider that the partical sheild rule will effect star fighters but the rescaling will not; example: tie fighter hull 2D witch includes the partical sheilds (i always thought that the partical sheilds helped hold ships togeather by reinforcing the structural integrity an so could be added safely to the hull code), so the hull would be reduced to 0D.
As for targeting individual systems on a space transport, i think no, the transport is to similar in manuverability to a star fighter for that, though you could rule that if an attacker beat's the to hit difficulty by more than 10/15 they might be able to target individual systems. If the target is disabled (landed, ionized e.t.c.) it should be little problem targeting individual systems with weapons of the same scale or lower. |
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Lostboy wrote: | Your rescaling and use of partical sheilds seem to balance each other out, but consider that the partical sheild rule will effect star fighters but the rescaling will not; example: tie fighter hull 2D witch includes the partical sheilds (i always thought that the partical sheilds helped hold ships togeather by reinforcing the structural integrity an so could be added safely to the hull code), so the hull would be reduced to 0D.
As for targeting individual systems on a space transport, i think no, the transport is to similar in manuverability to a star fighter for that, though you could rule that if an attacker beat's the to hit difficulty by more than 10/15 they might be able to target individual systems. If the target is disabled (landed, ionized e.t.c.) it should be little problem targeting individual systems with weapons of the same scale or lower. |
I did consider the fighter aspect, which is why I mentioned that fighters don't have particles shields as things would get wonky if they did. My logic is that not all fighters had shields, so how can they have particle shields as they are listed in the rules under shields, so I just made it universal for fighters, no particle shields their hulls are just plain strength of material.
With targeting, my rules don't really deal with it. Delkarnu mentioned it in the other thread as something he wanted to see. My rules involve 'attrition of shock' so to speak and like I said I didn't write them for space combat, but I figured they would work with some tweaks perhaps. In fact the more I think about it, the more I think they will need some tweaking probably varying the number of cumulative hits based on size of the ship or restricting the shields blown to hits that would be affected by the shields and having all others be controls ionized, are a couple that come to mind but that is something to figure out in playtesting. I posted the idea because it allows starfighters to affect capital ships without really damaging them, just as the character level rules do for charaters. I would prefer a more detailed damage system for capital ship and maybe space transports that would take into account the size of the vessel. I was thinking along the lines of 'compartmentalizing' the damage, but I haven't found what I consider a workable system, much less one that will fit in with the rule set. So I offered up a simple mechanic that at least allows them to have an affect on cap ships without having a ton of them. It's overly simple and far from perfect but it gives an easy way to have some kind of effect instead of none at all. |
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Lostboy
Commander
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I will work on the starship issues you have brought up but it might be a while as i have alot to do. So keep working if you like any help is appreciated. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Delkarnu wrote: | and instead of MAPs, for simpler enemies, roll against their dodge or parry, beat the defense by 0-3 one is hit, 4-6 two are hit, 7-9 three hits, 10+ hit the group. Roll one damage vs one STR+armor, all hit take that level of damage. They get +1D to their rolls for simple combined actions.
12 Stormies vs 4 players, they get split into 3 groups of four, left middle, right. 1st player pours blaster fire into the left group, beats their dodge by 6, he rolls 10 above their str+armor, two are incapacitated, two made their dodge.
2nd player charges in with lightsaber combat, which Stormies aren't good at defending, beats the score by 9, and rolls enough damage to take down three of them.
3rd player's wookie goes smashing in with 6D str and a few skill D in a brawling attack. Wounds all four.
4th player plays cleanup, shoots at group 1 and 2, takes a map, but beats the dodge of both groups, taking down the three healthy stormtroopers.
No stormtroopers can act. Wookie easily finishes off his four wounded guards in round two.
I think this could work, I like it. |
That sounds almost like how adnd battlesystem did things.
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Lostboy
Commander
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:26 am Post subject: Force power: Size matter not. |
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Size matters not: Control/Alter
A jedi using this ability must focus their power and for a short time bypass that part of their brain that knows that weight and size matters. When weilding the force what you belive is possible makes all the difference.
using this power can be your only action for the round
the force user activates concentration and spends a force point, If the power is interupted the character must reactivate concentration and spend another force point.
"Size matters not." Jedi master Yoda to Luke Skywalker
"I don't, i don't belive it." "That is why you fail" Luke Skywalker and Jedi master Yoda
Required powers: Concentration, Telekinesis
This power may be kept up but it can be the only action taken that round
Effect: This power allows the jedi to use her telekinesis to manipulate massive objects.
The user calculates their new dice pool(factoring in concentration and the force point.), then for every D increase in scale Remove a D from the dice pool, in other words rescale the dice pool to the object and then use telekinesis as normal. Note range and speed modifiers still apply.
The force was on my mind, so any comments. |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:05 am Post subject: |
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A power like that is, imo, silly. The idea behind "Size Matters Not" is directly related to one's level of enlightenment, which is represented, in this telekinetic sense, by your progress in Alter. You can already move massive objects with Telekinesis... when you're truly learned that size is not important. To use something like this cheapens the journey towards enlightenment... which is supposed to be long and difficult.
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Lostboy
Commander
Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 384
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Ouch my pride.
But i suppose you make a good point Ankhanu. I got so rapped up in codifying rules for everything that i forgot that the path to become a jedi is is not about the rules. Thanks for you honesty. |
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Ankhanu
Vice Admiral
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 3089
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm an honest guy
Don't worry about the pride. This sort of power may be just what some GMs are looking for; it depends on one's perspective on the Star Wars universe... my perspective is a fairly conservative one, others are more liberal/lenient.
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Delkarnu
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 189
Location: Saratoga Springs, Upstate NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Granted, I don't think that WEG got the force even close to right in the game, just doesn't capture the cinematic feel of the force by burying it in game mechanics.
Things like Danger Sense, Life Sense, etc. having to roll it and keep it up doesn't feel right to the movies. Countless times the force ruins a surprise attack, but I doubt most Jedi consciously keep a danger sense up, and Luke and Vader sensed each other's presence over Endor without trying to (and the Emperor was unable to).
Most of these are gotten around through GMs breaking the rules to provide the right feel, but I think the Control, Sense, and Alter breakdown just doesn't quite work.
Not sure if other people on the Pit agree with this, but I've been tempted to look at just Active and Passive attributes for force use.
Passive would be the innate connection with force flowing through the characters, letting them sense dangers and aid in their defense.
Active would be any intentional use of the force to affect the environment; healing, telekinesis, affect mind, etc.
In this system, something like lightsaber combat would add their passive die to let the force flow through them for defense, but only dark force users would use the active dice on their attacks "A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack"
I also never cared for some of the skill learning for force users. If a character has telekinesis, the should be able to force choke someone, not need an injure/kill force ability to do it.
Obviously this idea would need a lot more fleshing out before it could be introduced to the system as a working mechanic.
Any thoughts?
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Ankhanu
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Joined: 13 Oct 2006
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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It can work, I think. It would need some serious work to get a system like that where it would work properly, especially in the part where you mentioned lightsaber combat, passively increasing defense, but only dark siders would use actively for attack... from what I've watched and read, it seems like both are using the Force to augment their ability to strike, not just the Dark siders. If light siders didn't augment their attacks, they'd never penetrate the Force augmented defenses of a dark side opponent.
I've never particularly liked the C/S/A format for the Force, but I haven't tried anything as radical as you're suggesting to rework the Force. My most recent attempt was a single Force Attribute system that still used the Force Skills, but worked them a little differently. The idea was to change the system, but not toss everything away, such that the published material could be used with very little modification. The rules have seen very little play testing, but have seemed to work well, and can be found here.
Additionally, I've tried to make a system that is a little less rigid in terms of the Force and the Dark Side and neutral characters. Basically I was using KotOR as a bit of a template, changing the way that Force powers are aligned to the light, dark or neutral, according to use, and changing DSPs, what they mean, what defines a Dark Side character, and adding Light Side Points. That's seen a little play testing, but not to the point where the major changes start taking effect (ie. when a character moves from being Force Neutral into Light or Dark), so I'm not sure how well it would work exactly. The rules for that are here.
The two systems can be used together, the Force Attribute system replaces the standard system, and the Force Alignment system can augment either the standard Force system or the Force Attribute system.
Any thoughts on these are highly welcomed.
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Delkarnu
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Posts: 189
Location: Saratoga Springs, Upstate NY
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| Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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I definitely like your system(better than the one I posted ), the less juggling of rolls the more of a cinematic feel things have. my major issues with WEG force rules is learning new abilities and the constant rolling.
Learning new abilities - I cannot get angry as a character and use a dark side power to hurt someone(aside from a force scream), I have to learn the ability first, which makes turning dark a bit more of a choice than temptation. I like how your system allows for untrained power use, but I think some of the skills should have a LS/DS requirement or benefit, and some powers (especially some of the EU crap) should not be used untrained.
Constant rolling- If you want lightsaber combat, you might roll concentration to help you raise control, then next round raise sense, before you make any attacks, and it is relatively useless until you have 3 or 4D in control because having it up, any other actions start at -2D, whereas straight combat sense gives you +2D if you can make the roll
1 downside with your system I see is that difficulties would have to be adjusted. Currently, I have a starting character with 1D from attributes in CS@A, in your system, I could start at 3D in Force use for the same cost, so it seems like it could cut into the starting force users are crunchy. Also, if I put 2D into the attribute, and 2D into Lightsaber combat, so I have it at 4D, if I raise the force sensitive attribute by a pip, is lightsaber combat now at 4D+1 or remain at 4D?
I still think that some abilities, like learning danger sense, life sense, sense force, sense path, should have a passive benefit as opposed to actively using the ability. Actively using danger sense will warn you of ambushers around the corner, but when you don't have it 'up', it has a chance of warning you of an immediate attack, maybe get a chance to roll it at half your ability, while an active dense force will let get the ambiant force of a location, but passive will only activate for really strong dark or light side presences (like at the tree on dagobah or the destruction of alderaan)
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