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Power Armor: Dex or Mech?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would argue that this bears far more resemblance to Running or Dodge than it does to driving a Formula One.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I’m a little confused at the insistence that Spacetrooper armor is more like a vehicle. I’m not seeing it. It has arms and legs, which the wearer manipulates by moving his own arms and legs, which happen to be inside the armor’s limbs. The fact that it has spaceflight capability could just as easily be covered by Rocket Pack Operation.

It could. Before this thread, I had already combined Jet Pack Op, Rocket Pack Op and Powersuit Op into one Mechanical combo-skill: Powersuit/Pack Op. A 'character-scale worn conveyance' type of thing. For my skill set, I've combined several 2e skills into combo-skills. So I have skill generality not quite back to 1e, but somewhere in between 1e and 2e.

One difference in my mind was performance. Space Moves are abstractly large units of measure. A spacetrooper maneuvers like a slow spaceship. And according to WEG and EU lore, spacetrooper armor is designed for the trooper to wear a full suit of standard stormtrooper armor inside the spacetrooper suit. Is that double armor or armor plus personal vehicle? If you aren't suggesting standard stormtrooper suits should be considered powersuits to read the minute changes in musculature, then the powersuit premise doesn't seem to "fit" spacetrooper armor as well. (See what I did there.)

But there's no insistence from me. Spacetrooper armor is the only powersuit-type of technology that for sure exists in my SWU, but I'm not passionate about spacetrooper armor using the spaceship operation skill. But it wouldn't be a horrible match either.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
I especially don't see a need for the details of powersuit tech in another sci-fi franchise to have a lot of bearing on powersuits in Star Wars.

I think you missed my point. For power armor to function, it has to have some mechanism to sense the wearer's movements and react accordingly. The fact that the description comes from a different sci-fi genre is immaterial. Even something as basic as the stirrups in the "boots" of spacetrooper armor is going to have a similar basic function.

I didn't miss your point and I'm completely on board with the inner mechanism of powersuits as you present it. I said "That makes sense." (The only other way I can see powersuits working is that electrodes read neural impulses and you literally control the suit only with thought patterns, and that seems less Star Wars to me than what you describe.) You are taking my statement out of context:

Whill wrote:
They don't seem to exist in film canon (or Disney publishing so far). I'm not opposed to the technology existing in Star Wars, but at the same time I do not feel much obligation to incorporate them into my Star Wars universe. I especially don't see a need for the details of powersuit tech in another sci-fi franchise to have a lot of bearing on powersuits in Star Wars.

I meant powersuits existing in another franchise that details them more than Star Wars doesn't influence me want them in Star Wars, outside of the spacetroopers which could be considered vehicles if need be. As I stated powersuits (including WEG spacetrooper armor) aren't in the films, and my Star Wars game could easily do without them. But again, what you describe makes sense to me.

So what did you think of my idea? I ran with your idea about powersuits possibly being an advanced skill and suggested combining it with my Armor Proficiency advanced skill that reduces Armor Dex penalties. In my game that would make powersuits into advanced suits of armor, and the jet/jump/rocket/flight/power pack skill would still be a normal skill. Since virtually no one in the galaxy has more than 1D in the general advanced skill, each specific type of powersuit would still need specialized to have a higher skill level. And in my game, advanced skills can have skill and attribute prerequisites, so it could have Dex and Mec prerequisites.

nuclearwookiee wrote:
I would not make this an advanced skill. Powersuits don't seem any more advanced than other vehicles. And if you do, only make one prereq. Because advanced skills get added to their prerqs, setting more than one prereq just lets the player advance the prereqs at a discount.

I run into that sentiment about advanced skills a lot. That seems to be a very all or nothing attitude. 'You can't house rule this mechanic because of RAW in that mechanic.' A simple solution to the problem is do away with the rule of advanced skills automatically adding to all uses of prerequisite skills, and just have each advanced skill define which skills can have the bonus and in what circumstances. Then it is less dangerous for skills to be advanced skill. And even in RAW GMs can control the availability of advanced skills so they shouldn't become overpowering.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Power Armor: Dex or Mech? Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
That may be true. BUT that doesn't then, mean the character's using his DEX to move the armor.. Any more than a person sitting in a forumla 1 vehicle is..

I suggest you rethink your analogy. Every other Mechanical skill (or at least the piloting ones) involve sitting at a console, pushing buttons and manipulating levers to make a device perform a particular action. Power Armor, on the other hand, involves moving your body inside of a device that mimics the wearer’s movements to augment those movements and/or offset its own weight.


Did you by chance see Pacific rim? Do you think those 'Jager pilots" were more using their Dex??
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In Obi-Wan & Anakin, mechs were used in the Open-Closed war by the Open faction.

To me, the primary difference between a suit of power armor and a mech (or mecha, if you prefer that term), is whether the extremities of the pilot goes into the extremities of the armor or mech, or if you have a self-contained "pod" for the pilot. There is a large grey area, of course (for instance where you have waldoes that you insert your extremities into where moving the waldoes will move the extremities of the vehicle), but that definition tends to keep power armors below the size of the Elementals in Battletech, and anything bigger than that tends to be mechs.

So, if you have something that you wear (as opposed to drive), that's DEX to me, and if you have something you drive, that's MEC to me.

So the mechs from Obi-Wan & Anakin are MEC, but something like an Elemental suit is DEX to me.

I do wonder about how cybernetics might factor into this. For instance, it is almost necessary to have fast and fine-grained control of the myriad of functions of many mechs and power suits - but something like an on-board droid to function as a suit AI (such as Jarvis for Iron Man) might also work.
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Pel
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: Power Armor: Dex or Mech? Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:

Did you by chance see Pacific rim? Do you think those 'Jager pilots" were more using their Dex??


That's a salient point. Given the mental interface and body movements required for operating the Jagers, I think it's likely a Dex-based reflex skill. Of course there's an argument for Str-based Brawling also, but I lean toward Dexterity (pun intended).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Power Armor: Dex or Mech? Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I've never felt that Power Armor Operation really fit into the Mechanical skill category. Every description I've ever heard of power armor involved a suit that sensed the wearer's movements and augmented them via its own servos / musculature. That's a lot different from sitting in a ship or speeder's driver's seat, manipulating a steering yoke or whatever. To me, Power Armor seems much more a Dexterity skill.

Also, on a related note, if Power Armor is moved to Dexterity, would it be a better fit as a regular skill or as an Advanced Skill. And, if an Advanced Skill, what prerequisites?

I decided to go with combining Powersuit Operation with my Armor Proficiency advanced skill and making it based primarily on Dexterity, with the primary prerequisites being Dexterity, agility (running+dodge), lifting, stamina, and my armor/powersuit technical skill. It also has very minimal prerequisites of Mechanical and Strength. Having this advanced skill reduces armor penalties. After 1D in the advanced skill, you must specialize in a specific armor or powersuit, and the specialization only reduces penalties for that armor/suit. You don't need this advanced skill just to wear armor, but it does help with the penalties. Some uses of powersuits could require the skill, but not just wearing basic armor.

As a friendly reminder, I do not allow the advance skills to automatically stack with all prerequisites — It has to make sense in the situation. For example, the lifting and stamina is part of the conditioning, but yes I see it mostly as a body Dexterity thing.

To come to this determination, I divorced jet and rocket packs from the powersuit skill, so they are now just jet/rocket pack operation with a corresponding technical skill. Most powersuits do not enable wearers to fly, so it seems ok to separate these.

I am currently rewriting all damage rules and I am having powersuit repair rules match armor repair rules.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Making this a Dexterity based skill could make much sense, if we look to a power-ed armor, these are not included in any skill and though not nearly as advanced, they do share some similar features, and imo enough to be a distingct type of armor

In the d20 star wars, all power armors were under the same feat, thes included the various stormtrooper armors, though fully iisable with armor proficiency alone, many of the advanced features they are described to have were reasoned that to operate you needed more traning.

Idk ifI want to apply this to D6 but many armors are power-ed and the stormtrooper armors among them

So a powersuit under dex would make sense
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2020 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've restatted stormtroopers. They all have the advanced armor training so they have reduced Dex penalties.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be interested to see what your skill looks like in its official form.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd be interested to see what your skill looks like in its official form.

Writing that one out in full form will require some work because powersuit stats are just all over the place and do many different kinds of things. A WEG author just thought powersuits should exist in Star Wars and added it, but they thought of it more like personal conveyance, jet/rocket pack type of thing so put it in Mechanical. I really like your explanation of powersuits and see a relation of conditioning for them not being penalized by wearing armor to being proficient with powersuits.

What makes the most sense to me are powersuits that provide feats of greater strength. Lifting more weight, jumping farther, etc. I can see a Dex penalty to those unexperienced with that type of thing, so they would have a Dex penalty, like armor. The advanced skill reduces the Dex penalty by 1 pip for every 1D you have. The 1D base applies to all armor and suits, while the specialization dice on top of that apply to that suit only.

But when you would actively use the advanced skill for "operating" powersuits instead of a normal skill? And what about powersuits boosting feats of Dexterity? If something penalizes your Dexterity how would it also enhance Dexterity? It would seem that to fully realize this skill, powersuit stats may have to be rewritten. I'm ok with that because not that many will appear in my game, but I should at least have a few suit stats fully functional with rules just because I have the skill. I don't really need powersuits in my game at all, but I'm not oppose to the existence of them in my SWU so thought I would account for them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stopped short of allowing power armor to enhance dexterity, and went with what I called reflex armor that used the power-assist systems to offset armor weight penalties. IMO, dexterity enhancement would require something much more invasive and permanent, like the RIMPack Implant option from Cracken's Rebel Field Guide.

However, the Mechanical skill Powersuit Operation would still have a place, as it would be needed to operate the add-on systems of the armor itself. While simple movement would be a Dexterity function, there would need to be some method of activating and controlling things like integrated weapons, sensor systems, comlinks, etc. Those would all have to be controlled by voice, or tongue or chin activated touch plates in the helmet, or retinal tracking cameras that allow the wearer to look at a HUD icon and blink twice or some combination of specific physical movements that the suit is programmed to recognize.

Basically, a power armor suit will still have Mechanical systems that need to be operated, above and beyond simply mimicking the wearer's movements, but the method of controlling said systems can't use conventional means like a control console or joystick, so the designers will need to get creative, and this will definitely be a separate skill from that required to drive a speeder or fly a starship.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I stopped short of allowing power armor to enhance dexterity, and went with what I called reflex armor that used the power-assist systems to offset armor weight penalties. IMO, dexterity enhancement would require something much more invasive and permanent, like the RIMPack Implant option from Cracken's Rebel Field Guide.

However, the Mechanical skill Powersuit Operation would still have a place, as it would be needed to operate the add-on systems of the armor itself. While simple movement would be a Dexterity function, there would need to be some method of activating and controlling things like integrated weapons, sensor systems, comlinks, etc. Those would all have to be controlled by voice, or tongue or chin activated touch plates in the helmet, or retinal tracking cameras that allow the wearer to look at a HUD icon and blink twice or some combination of specific physical movements that the suit is programmed to recognize.

Basically, a power armor suit will still have Mechanical systems that need to be operated, above and beyond simply mimicking the wearer's movements, but the method of controlling said systems can't use conventional means like a control console or joystick, so the designers will need to get creative, and this will definitely be a separate skill from that required to drive a speeder or fly a starship.

This helps a lot. Thanks!

The reflex armor thing is a technological solution to offset armor Dex penalties, which doesn't even need to exist IMO — There should be downsides to wearing all armor, even unpowered armor. I was referring to the armor wearer's training offsetting some of the penalty.

We've discussed the hand wave mechanic of advanced stormtroopers ignoring the Dex penalties, and that was my inspiration for the advanced skill. It takes years of training to even get the first 1D in the advanced armor proficiency skill. In my SWU, Imperial stormtroopers are raised to be troopers from childhood — the Empire went to a dark version of the Jedi model by forcibly taking children and raising them as stormtroopers when cloning ramped down. I've restatted entry-level stormtroopers to have some of their Dex penalty offset. They have the 1D in the base skill plus 1D on top of that specializing in their standard st armor — they offset 2 pips in their armor so the Dex penalty in that armor is only -1 pip (and they would offset 1 pip of Dex penalty if they wore any other armor). I see all but maybe some elite varieties of stormtroopers starting out with the basic training, so maybe most have the standard armor specialization plus a specialization in whatever their specialty armor is (scout, snow, etc.). Like in RAW, some armors are not as penalizing, so in my game scout troopers totally offset the Dex penalty in their armor so have none. Armor cultures like Mandalorians would also be good candidates for the advanced skill.

I like your idea of just simply saying power armor does not enhance Dex skills. Applying that to my system means Dex penalties will be in effect, but may be reduced (and maybe eliminated) by the advanced skill if the wearer has it. And so the skill will be actively used for other systems the powersuit has, if any. Like I said, this will require some rewriting power armor stats to reflect this, but you have given the framework for that.

Do you have any powersuits statted out which reflect this concepts?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see two parallel penalty/offset systems here: physical and technological. The first would be what you're describing, where the armor's weight, bulk and/or design interferes with or impedes the wearer's Dexterity (and certain Strength skills, primarily Stamina, but I digress), which your skill would then offset via the character's training and experience operating with said armor, or with "reflex" systems integrated into the armor to make it easier to operate. The second would be a measurement of how "user friendly" the power armor's systems control interface is, which would be used to generate Difficulty values for the Mechanical side of Powersuit Operation.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK.

Quote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
However, the Mechanical skill Powersuit Operation would still have a place, as it would be needed to operate the add-on systems of the armor itself. While simple movement would be a Dexterity function, there would need to be some method of activating and controlling things like integrated weapons, sensor systems, comlinks, etc. Those would all have to be controlled by voice, or tongue or chin activated touch plates in the helmet, or retinal tracking cameras that allow the wearer to look at a HUD icon and blink twice or some combination of specific physical movements that the suit is programmed to recognize.

Basically, a power armor suit will still have Mechanical systems that need to be operated, above and beyond simply mimicking the wearer's movements, but the method of controlling said systems can't use conventional means like a control console or joystick, so the designers will need to get creative, and this will definitely be a separate skill from that required to drive a speeder or fly a starship.

Do you have any powersuits statted out which reflect this concepts?

I see that you did post spacetrooper stats last year. What would the powersuit operation: spacetrooper armor skill do for this suit? Would that be used for movement rolls flying in space? Would that be used for movement rolls in the suit once it boarded a ship with artificial gravity still in place? Anything else?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn’t thinking in terms of this rule when I wrote that stat. I haven’t entirely settled on an armor encumbrance/penalty system that I like, so I wrote the Spacetrooper stats RAW-style.
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