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Psychological Effects
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trust me, i may be a dirtbag at times, but when it comes to application of rules, i am fair if firm..
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Trust me, i may be a dirtbag at times, but when it comes to application of rules, i am fair if firm..


Don't take this the wrong way, but that would make a pretty good signature...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.. Its hard to offend me...
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
After thinking about this some more, I'm agreeing with this.

I'm still inclined to allow for a no-roll threshold: that is, there are certain times when there is zero chance of success. This of course falls into GM discretion. But to give an example: is there any scenario where a GM here would allow for a jawa to successfully intimidate Darth Vader? Palpatine? Yoda?


There was a situation not entirely unlike this in a game. There was NO chance. The conversation went like this.

Newbie Player: Okay, I want to [bad idea].
Me: This is not a good idea. You're likely to get killed.
Newbie: No no, it will be GREAT.
Me: Your CHARACTER thinks this is a bad idea.
Newbie: No no, it's going to be awesome.
Me: This is the GM -- as the voice of God -- warning you that this is a bad idea.
Newbie: No way, this is gonna be great!

It's only because I accidentally tabulated scale wrong that he wound up getting vaporized.

Point being. If they are determined, I'll let them roll. But I'm going to make sure they know that they shouldn't.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:


There was a situation not entirely unlike this in a game. There was NO chance. The conversation went like this.

Newbie Player: Okay, I want to [bad idea].
Me: This is not a good idea. You're likely to get killed.
Newbie: No no, it will be GREAT.
Me: Your CHARACTER thinks this is a bad idea.
Newbie: No no, it's going to be awesome.
Me: This is the GM -- as the voice of God -- warning you that this is a bad idea.
Newbie: No way, this is gonna be great!

It's only because I accidentally tabulated scale wrong that he wound up getting vaporized.

Point being. If they are determined, I'll let them roll. But I'm going to make sure they know that they shouldn't.


Laughing Laughing Laughing

A momentary tangent: it reminds me of players who have a "master plan" that they want to keep secret from the entire group, including the GM, so as not to spoil the dramatic effect of the plan's culmination at just the right moment... the only explanation they offer as to their intent is, "Trust me."


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:

Point being. If they are determined, I'll let them roll. But I'm going to make sure they know that they shouldn't.


Exactly. IF THEY want to do something, let them try.. EVEN IF There is no chance of success. AND if they do something even with all the warnings, then any bad endings, are on THEM..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Ah, I see. But, to be fair, it doesnt address the question: would you fudge the willpower roll if it had actually failed even after bonuses/modifiers, etc?

garhkal wrote:
I hate fudging. Even for named NPCs..

Naaman wrote:
I appreciate the consistency, sir. Very Happy

Was that a test? You didn't expect that garhkal would ever fudge, did you?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

He seemed so adamant about the invincibility of the characters that it seemed to go against his usual policy. Obviously, I don't expect that even a heroic PC would ever reach a skill level in one of Garhkal's games to have any kind of a chance at successfully intimidating Palpatine. Just wasn't clear which position was a higher priority to him.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Bren wrote:

And once again I am solidly on the side of yes, circumstances should matter and one of the circumstances is where does the desired or statement outcome fall on a spectrum of behavior for that character(s). normal behavior would that result


Why should circumstances matter to what effect a successful intimidate roll has/?
I assume you're referring to a roll that is successful after all circumstances have been taken into account and modifiers applied?

Your assumption is more or less correct. I’ll try to explain.

Explanation #1: Running away from one particular bad guy (or any bad guy) may be completely in-character based on past behavior chosen by the player for one PC and not at all in-character for another. As an example, we see Han Solo use the run-away reaction a lot so having a die roll tell Han’s player that Han feels outgunned and either runs away or has a penalty on aggressive reactions seems completely in line with how we have already seen Han behave in the films. Similarly if a player has previously chosen to have their PC run away when outgunned it’s not unreasonable for a die roll to push this reaction. On the other hand if we have another character where the player has never in the past had their PC run away when outgunned having that PC run away is a more extreme reaction which I'm less likely to have occur. Or I'm more likely to require a bigger difference in Intimidation vs. Willpower to get to that extreme of a reaction.

Explanation #2: I think that reactions are often and should be character dependent. A character who is supposed to be laconic and stoic like Clint Eastwood’s man with no name character in the Sergio Leone Spaghetti Westerns or Dirty Harry in those films is going to visibly differ in how he reacts when he fails the Willpower vs. Intimidation roll* compared to how Han Solo (or Indiana Jones) reacts. The characters Harrison Ford plays are more emotive and more volatile in their emotions and the reactions they have based on a die roll should reflect that. So as a GM I am going to make it easier for Han and harder for No-name to end up with a run away result based on a die roll.

Using psychological effects is a balancing act between the PC always doing only what the player wants their PC to do and what the dice and circumstances indicate their PC ought to do that is different than what the player wants. As the GM I’m trying to balance those two things in a way that makes for a play experience that feels authentic, interesting, challenging, and ultimately entertaining for the entire table and not just for any one player. But as a practical matter I don’t want to spend too much time crafting customized tables of possible reactions for each PC with specific modifiers for each reaction based on the given situation. So I take a first pass at including relevant modifiers like which side has the advantage, which side appears to have the advantage, which side has won in previous encounters, and so on and I use this to modify the Intimidation/Willpower roll(s). But after determining the roll I then factor into the outcome what makes sense for this particular PC to do in this particular situation.

* The Clint Eastwood character(s) is also more likely to want to pit his Intimidation vs. that of his opponent rather than using a Willpower roll to resist Intimidation. When I let a character do this a failing roll is more likely to end in a gun fight than in someone running away.

Naaman wrote:
...is there any scenario where a GM here would allow for a jawa to successfully intimidate Darth Vader? Palpatine? Yoda?
The respective skill levels and circumstantial modifiers make the Jawa winning by a significant enough margin** to provoke an extreme reactions from Darth or Palpy highly unlikely. But here’s one situation where it might make sense.
    Assume the Jawa has the initiative and its paw is on the self-destruct button of the secret base/star destroyer/Death Star/etc.



** It isn’t enough to just win the contest. I treat this like a Damage vs. Strength roll. Winning by 16+ has a much more extreme effect than winning by only 0-3 points.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Laughing Laughing Laughing

A momentary tangent: it reminds me of players who have a "master plan" that they want to keep secret from the entire group, including the GM, so as not to spoil the dramatic effect of the plan's culmination at just the right moment... the only explanation they offer as to their intent is, "Trust me."


Laughing Laughing Laughing


Yeah, especially if it is the least trustworthy self-indulging munchkin of the bunch.

Though in honesty, I've fallen victim to the "master plan" mentality myself. I've gone off the idea entirely in recent years. The idea plays REALLY well on TV, movies, or books when the main character is going to do something great to wow the audience. So, it kind of assumes that your character is the main character and everyone else is the audience. I don't think it's entirely fair when we're dealing with games that are largely about cooperative problem solving and group efforts.

Now, there are times when someone wonderful idea plays out in an astounding way that wows the rest of the group. But it really shouldn't be a matter of following someone's idea that is kept secret only for the purpose of trying to get a reaction from the rest of the group.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Thanks.. Its hard to offend me...



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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said hard, not impossible!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I said hard, not impossible!

Laughing
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I said hard, not impossible!

Laughing

I've been thinking of this all week, but the Meme Generators I could access through my phone and tablet wouldn't let me write the word bubble into the comic, so I had to wait until I got home.
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Straxus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr. Green
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