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The Last Jedi (original spoilers thread)
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://imgur.com/a/6smO9
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just came across an article.

Yes, it hates on TLJ, but I'm not too fond of the film myself, so I don't care. However, this quote stuck out to me...
    In an interview with Deadline, director Rian Johnson revealed that there was no big outline on the trilogy, and that he had full creative freedom to do whatever he wished in The Last Jedi. Meaning Disney and the Star Wars story group left the fate and success of this multi-billion dollar franchise to chance and at the whim of whichever director & writer happened to be directing at the time.

If true, this suggests that the current trilogy is being organized almost like a Chain Writing project on a grand scale. Yes, Lucas made a lot of stuff up as he went along, but the concept of an overarching story thread that encompassed all of the films was always there.

For all that I generally disliked TFA as well, it left with the strong impression that a lot of ends were being left untied so as to be later resolved in the subsequent two films. The TLJ came along and, rather than resolving ends and threads, just threw them in the trash and set them on fire.

The more I think about the TFA and TLJ, the more the new trilogy seems like badly-written fan fiction with a larger budget. In point of fact, I have read Star Wars fan fiction, written by people who do it just for fun, that is faaaaaaaaar superior to either of the two latest trilogy films. God, what I'd give to see blank101 turned loose on an actual Star Wars film script!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Through several iterations, George Lucas had a story for a movie. Then he expanded it into a trilogy of movies with the possibility of more trilogies. The second and third episodes of the first trilogy changed as they developed, but from early preproduction of the second episode there were specific ideas in his mind as to who Luke, Vader, and the Emperor were. Lucas had complete creative control throughout.

Quote:
KYLO REN: It's time to let old things die. Snoke, Skywalker. The Sith, the Jedi, the Rebels... Let it all die.

TFA famously ends with Rey holding Anakin’s lightsaber out to him on a mountain. The lightsaber is symbolic of Disney’s process for making Star Wars movies. JJ Abrams was hired to direct Episode VII and given complete creative control over it, then “pass the saber” to the next director. Rian Johnson was hired to direct Episode VIII (likewise with full creative control), and also to write a story treatment for Episode IX who would be directed by someone else. While I’m sure JJ Abrams had very specific ideas about the backgrounds and story arcs of the TFA characters, Abrams was only laying down a groundwork of possibilities and Johnson was not beholden to continue in the same direction. Somewhere in the process of making TLJ, Johnson was no longer involved with Episode IX, so the saber was going to be completely passed again to someone else for Episode IX. To allow for maximum creativity of each individual director, main saga Star Wars trilogies apparently do not have any preplanned trilogy story arc, for better or worse. It’s just one movie at a time. When the story of TLJ gets back to Luke and Rey on the mountain, Luke unexpectedly tosses the lightsaber over his back.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
One thing I will say, though, about the new direction of the Star Wars stories. I really have no idea of what to expect about the next movie. I'm totally clueless.

That's probably the highest compliment I can give a Rian, because he got us there.

CRMcNeill wrote:
However, this quote stuck out to me...
    In an interview with Deadline, director Rian Johnson revealed that there was no big outline on the trilogy, and that he had full creative freedom to do whatever he wished in The Last Jedi. Meaning Disney and the Star Wars story group left the fate and success of this multi-billion dollar franchise to chance and at the whim of whichever director & writer happened to be directing at the time.
If true, this suggests that the current trilogy is being organized almost like a Chain Writing project on a grand scale. Yes, Lucas made a lot of stuff up as he went along, but the concept of an overarching story thread that encompassed all of the films was always there.

For all that I generally disliked TFA as well, it left with the strong impression that a lot of ends were being left untied so as to be later resolved in the subsequent two films.

It's true. I touched on that in this reaction post which I quoted above. Multimillion dollar chain writing, but it is not completely unprecedented. "The Dark Knight Trilogy" movies were all made by Christopher Nolan, but they were made one at a time with no pre-planned trilogy arc. But for the Star Wars sequel trilogy, the first episode's director is also directing the third episode. Like you said, TFA left a lot of threads untied to later be resolved in the subsequent two films. I don't at all find myself missing Snoke or Phasma, and there are still things left for Episode IX to resolve. For example, JJ Abrams has a chance to introduce the rest of the Knights of Ren. A major thing left to resolve is Rey's identity and the meaning of her visions.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Maybe Rey is a clone. If Luke met his father in the Dark Side Cave, and Rey met herself, does that mean that Rey's parent is... Rey? As in, whoever the original tissue donor is who contributed Rey's genetic material?

Star Wars having clones puts this in the realm of possibility, but Rey's mystical dark cave vision of rows of herself just meaning she is from a long line of clones seems pretty low brow. Although Rian Johnson was free to take the the sequel trilogy in his own direction for his film, JJ Abrams and he met and discussed their takes on it with each other when TLJ was in pre-production. Since the meaning of Rey's dark cave vision will not be revealed until Episode IX and the imagery seems way too specific to just be 'random stuff that means nothing and Abrams will have to make sense of it later', we have a strong reason to suspect that Johnson is honoring Abram's concept for Rey's identity and moving it forward a bit. This big revelation they are moving towards for Episode IX has just got to be more than Rey is a clone.

A deeper and more meaningful symbolism of her vision might be reincarnation, as mentioned in my review's Speculation section. Rey has many similarities to Anakin. Their costumes were similar in trilogy first episodes, they both had meager existences on desert worlds, they both were tech whizzes, they both were ace pilots with little prior experience, they both had hang-ups about absent parents, they both were strong with the force, they both were skilled melee warriors, they both got injured by melee weapons on their right shoulders in second trilogy episodes, and they both had blue lightsabers broken in half in second trilogy episodes. Anakin's Episode III blue lightsaber called out to Rey, and when she touched it she had a vision of a reconstruction of a Cloud City scene with Rey standing in Vader's position. The more fans reject the reincarnation theory, the more likely I think this is because hardly anyone is expecting this. They have to try to outdo, "I am your father".
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you guys noticed, in both TLJ and TFA, that the large capital ships don't seem to have near as many turbo laser batteries as listed in the WEG game and elsewhere for past ships.

Is this new era of ship design, or maybe the First Order only, using a doctrine of fewer, but more powerful turret weapons?

Look at Poe's escape in TFA. We've discussed this before, but I've never been convinced because the movie tends to indicate that Poe blew out all of the ships turbo lasers on its ventral side.

Now, again, in TLJ, he does the same, this time on the dorsal side, to protect the bombers.

One X-Wing destroying all gun turrets, pretty quickly, on a firing arc of a Star Destroyer and another capital ship?

It's hard to believe, but that's what the films tend to show.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Finn's character arc Reply with quote

When I first came home and posted here after I first saw TFA, the first SW film in 10 years, I just said I liked it but was mostly stunned. I later realized it was one my favorite movies. When I first saw RO, my first reaction was just one of raw excitement and nostalgia-laden euphoria. I did not have these reactions for TLJ. I still had to see it a few times to begin to better formulate my thoughts, but there definitely wasn't any initial 'love it' type of reaction like when I saw the last two Disney films. However, I don't think that other fan reactions have really had any impact on my personal appreciation of the film (or lack thereof). Do you guys find that your reactions to TLJ are swayed by public or friend influence? I can't says I experience much of that.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
About the Fin, Rose, DJ, BB-8 side quest...

Outside of this site, I avoided almost all online opinion pieces and fan ravings the first two weeks of TLJ's release, so didn't really start to scratch the surface of these until after I had posted my thoughts and reactions. Since then I've found that the criticism of 'Finn's mission accomplished nothing' is an extremely common one that seems to keep getting steam as more and more fans jump on the bashwagon.

Look at Han in the classic trilogy...
Quote:
HAN: Besides, attacking that battle station ain't my idea of courage. It's more like... suicide.
Quote:
HAN: Yahooo! You're all clear, kid. Now let's blow this thing and go home.
Quote:
DECK OFFICER: Sir, the temperature's dropping too rapidly.
HAN: That's right. And my friend's out in it.
Quote:
RIEEKAN: A death mark's not an easy thing to live with.
Quote:
MADINE: General Solo, is your strike team assembled?

Now look at Finn in the sequel trilogy...
Quote:
FINN: There is no fight against the First Order. Not one we can win…We all need to run.
Quote:
FINN: Reeeeeey!
Quote:
HAN: Then how do you know how to disable the shields?
FINN: I don't. I'm just here to get Rey.
Quote:
FINN: How’s Rey going to find us now?
Quote:
FINN: This fleet is doomed and if my friend comes back to it, then she is doomed too. I’ve got to get this beacon far away from here, and then she’ll find me and be safe…We can’t outrun the First Order fleets….They can track us through light speed.
Quote:
DJ: Finn, let me learn you something big. It’s all a machine, partner. Live free, don’t join.
Quote:
PHASMA: You were always scum.
FINN: Rebel scum.
Quote:
FINN: I can't let them win!

Han and Finn are both secondary main protagonists of their respective trilogies. JJ Abrams was obviously inspired by Han's classic character arc for Finn, and Rian Johnson just picked up where Abrams left off. Finn never joined the Resistance cause in TFA. He was just trying to help his friend Rey. But in TLJ, Finn has a personal transformation. In the plot of TLJ, this is the purpose of the unsuccessful mission to sabotage the First Order's hyperspace tracker. Finn now fights for the Resistance cause. Finn's arc in the story is a lot more clear than Poe's.

Granted, Finn's arc seems a bit weaker than Han's dramatically, because Finn doesn't even have a "third party" death mark throwing a wrench in it. And if you don't like TLJ and/or don't care for the character of Finn in the first place, then I can see how Finn's commitment to the rebel cause might not seem that important or meaningful to you. But to say that Finn's story in the second act had no point would be incorrect.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Have you guys noticed, in both TLJ and TFA, that the large capital ships don't seem to have near as many turbo laser batteries as listed in the WEG game and elsewhere for past ships.

Is this new era of ship design, or maybe the First Order only, using a doctrine of fewer, but more powerful turret weapons?


Well in ANH, all we saw was what, 4 laser batteries opening up on the Tantaive IV.. And what ONE gun firing back..
In ESB, we saw maybe 6 guns from that one ISD firing into the asteroids, when Han was fleeing.
In RotJ, we didn't realy see ANY cap ship firing.. Just fighters, FIGHTERS all over the place.
In PM, i remember about 8 guns from that Droid control ship opening up on the fleeing Naboo ship.. Or maybe it was 2 guns firing rapidly.
There was NO big guys going at it in ATOC.
And in RoTS, we saw that one clone ship opening up with what, 20 guns from what 500 yards away..
So, YES we have not seen ANYWHERE near the # of guns on the ships firing, as the books (even the official guides) have claimed Cap ships have...

Vader's ISD opened up with at LEAST a dozen guns when he showed up near the end of Rogue 1..
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The TLJ came along and, rather than resolving ends and threads, just threw them in the trash and set them on fire.

I LOLed at this. There are still some things left to resolve in Episode IX, but Finn's arc seems to be resolved. Maybe there will be a romantic arc (Ugh, but if so it has to be better than Anakin and Padme).

CRMcNeill wrote:
God, what I'd give to see blank101 turned loose on an actual Star Wars film script!

That's awesome that you enjoy some Star Wars fan fiction that much. I wish I had the time to read more of that, or even write some.

CRMcNeill wrote:
In point of fact, I have read Star Wars fan fiction, written by people who do it just for fun, that is faaaaaaaaar superior to either of the two latest trilogy films.

The comparison of the films to fan fiction reminds me of the people who rank the Holiday Special and Ewok TV movies as 'faaaaaaaaar superior to' actual Star Wars films. It's quite a dramatic bash. I'm sorry that the film was so disappointing to you. I can even sympathize with your feelings to a point. Thanks to you and all who feel any films 'suck' for withholding the worst of your negativity for films on this website. It is very much appreciated.

On Dec 15, 2017, CRMcNeill wrote:
Overall, I was quite impressed... this has gone a ways toward restoring my faith in the TFA era.

On Dec 29, 2017, CRMcNeill wrote:
And despite my generally favorable first impression, I have since changed my mind. It wasn't awful

On Jan 05, 2018, CRMcNeill wrote:
Yes, it hates on TLJ, but I'm not too fond of the film myself... The more I think about the TFA and TLJ, the more the new trilogy seems like badly-written fan fiction with a larger budget.

That's a drastic transformation of opinion from positive to negative. At least you got one enjoyable experience out of TLJ the first time you saw it, so that's a small plus! Me being such a huge fan of TFA, I think I'm having the opposite reaction to TLJ as your initial one. As much as I sincerely will reserve final judgement of the sequel trilogy until after I've seen Episode IX, TLJ has unfortunately cast some doubt on my faith in the sequel trilogy. But I enjoyed RotJ more than TESB, and RotS really helped me appreciate the prequel trilogy after AotC, so there is still hope for Episode IX.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Have you guys noticed, in both TLJ and TFA, that the large capital ships don't seem to have near as many turbo laser batteries as listed in the WEG game and elsewhere for past ships.

Is this new era of ship design, or maybe the First Order only, using a doctrine of fewer, but more powerful turret weapons?

Look at Poe's escape in TFA. We've discussed this before, but I've never been convinced because the movie tends to indicate that Poe blew out all of the ships turbo lasers on its ventral side.

Now, again, in TLJ, he does the same, this time on the dorsal side, to protect the bombers.

One X-Wing destroying all gun turrets, pretty quickly, on a firing arc of a Star Destroyer and another capital ship?

It's hard to believe, but that's what the films tend to show.

Unfortunately, they aren't consistent in this. The Profundity / MC75 is underwhelmingly armed, especially for a ship capable of going head-to-head with two ISDs, even though it is a contemporary of ships with known RPG stats. The Finalizer / Resurgent-Class ISDs from TFA and TLJ purportedly have "1,500 turbolasers and ion cannon", so apparently some ships are badly under-armed while others are massively overarmed (with that many cannon, a Resurgent outguns an Executor)
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The comparison of the films to fan fiction reminds me of the people who rank the Holiday Special and Ewok TV movies as 'faaaaaaaaar superior to' actual Star Wars films. It's quite a dramatic bash. I'm sorry that the film was so disappointing to you. I can even sympathize with your feelings to a point. Thanks to you and all who feel any films 'suck' for withholding the worst of your negativity for films on this website. It is very much appreciated.
Oh, don't read too much into it; 99% of fan fiction is utter pudu, at best fit for young adult novel fodder. But there are a few real gems out there, and blank101 is one of them. I've asked him more than once why he is giving his work away for free on fanfiction.net instead of trying to get published. Disney should be so lucky as to have this guy write a Star Wars novel.

Quote:
That's a drastic transformation of opinion from positive to negative. At least you got one enjoyable experience out of TLJ the first time you saw it, so that's a small plus! Me being such a huge fan of TFA, I think I'm having the opposite reaction to TLJ as your initial one. As much as I sincerely will reserve final judgement of the sequel trilogy until after I've seen Episode IX, TLJ has unfortunately cast some doubt on my faith in the sequel trilogy. But I enjoyed RotJ more than TESB, and RotS really helped me appreciate the prequel trilogy after AotC, so there is still hope for Episode IX.

My general pattern with new SW films is that, when I see it for the first time, my initial impression is colored by the fact that I am WATCHING NEW STAR WARS!!! Then, after a while, the excitement wears off and I begin to see the flaws that were always there, even though I was too preoccupied with watching to truly see them.

So, now that we are past that point, the problems with TLJ are manifold and obvious. Rogue One was the exception of the Disney films, in that the flaws were, well, manageable. There was no pointless love story, no wasted story arc, all the characters seemed to fit well enough into what was already known, and so on and so forth. Rogue One gives me hope that Disney can do better, while TLJ simply disappointed me by showing that the quality of Rogue One was not going to be a consistent mark of their product
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After watching TLJ last month, I wondered about whether there was any sort of overarching outline for the entire trilogy and thought that TLJ was circumstantial evidence that there wasn't. After just having read the posts here confirming that this sequel trilogy is essentially, as Whill referred it, "multimillion dollar chain writing," I'm not sure what to think. Yeah, it has the advantage of throwing the audience for a loop in that we have no idea what's going to happen next.

But it also has the disadvantage that the flow of the entire trilogy won't be a unified whole and/or will be a disjointed set of three movies that only have the main characters and the Star Wars name in common.

There's also the notion that (and this is mentioned in a recent article I read here) TLJ is essentially a tragedy. I can't disagree with this. The Resistance went from thousands of people stationed at D'Qar to only a few dozen at most (all of whom managed to fit into the Millenium Falcon in their final escape!) in essentially one attack. From a guerilla warfare point of view, that's sheer stupidity to put all your eggs in one basket like that. The Rebels at Hoth were better prepared for their evacuation (having their evacuation fleet parked at Hoth ready to fly at a moment's notice probably helped with that Rolling Eyes ) and were far more successful at it.

Not to mention that at both Hoth and Yavin, the first thing the Rebels did was to evacuate their leadership (we can infer this for Hoth because Mon Mothma wasn't present at the Battle of Hoth and, in the case of Yavin, the short story "Contingency Plan" in From A Certain Point Of View shows Mon Mothma and her aide evacuating from Yavin only a few hours before the Death Star arrived and making contingency plans for the Alliance if Base One was destroyed). In TLJ, the entire leadership of the Resistance gets wiped out because they were all in the Raddus' bridge when the First Order TIEs attacked. And the only reason Leia survived was because she pulled a Mary Poppins with her Force-sensitivity after being blown out into space.

There's also the notion that everything Leia fought for her entire life (namely restoration of freedom and democracy for the entire galaxy as well as building the New Republic government) is turned to dust (literally in the case of Hosnian Prime and the New Republic government) by the time TLJ ends. This hits especially hard when the Resistance sends their SOS from Crait and no one answers. Imagine what would have happened in Lord of the Rings if Gondor called for aid and the people of Rohan collectively said "Go up against Sauron? Screw that, not my problem!" Yeah, that's really tragic. Except here in Star Wars, we have it happening across the entire galaxy. Think about that: the entire Star Wars galaxy just crossed the Despair Even Horizon. That ups the tragedy to 11 and makes the ending of TLJ even bleaker than the ending of Revenge of the Sith. That's saying alot.

And then there's what TLJ did to Poe Dameron. In TFA, he was a badass pilot who even managed to impress Kylo Ren with his refusal to break from the First Order's torture. In TLJ, he becomes a mutinous Scrappy whose half-baked plan to help the Resistance fleet escape winds up getting everyone killed instead when the First Order gets tipped off to the Resistance's plan to use their evacuation transports. (And all because of a friggin' parking ticket starting a chain of errors resulting in Finn and Rose trusting a man who the Resistance has no reason to trust just because he claims to have the skills they need. True to form, DJ sells out the Resistance at first opportunity.) What happened to that savvy ace pilot we saw in TFA who would have known better to go AWOL and defy Admiral Holdo's orders? It's like Poe had a personality transplant during the evacuation of D'Qar or something. It's this sort of change in personality in major characters that makes me afraid of the aforementioned "multimillion dollar chain writing." A single author knows his own characters; different authors writing for the same story won't have the same insights into the same characters and might change their personalities on a whim, as happened to Poe.

When I walked out of the theater in Dec 2015, I was disappointed in TFA because it seemed to be too much of a retread of ANH, but the passage of time improved my opinion of TFA. With TLJ, I think the opposite is happening: I walked out of TLJ thinking that it was a great film (if not as good as TESB and RO), but after realizing just how tragic TLJ is in retrospect, my opinion of it is (or might be, anyway) gradually souring. I've never been a fan of Downer Endings and even with the Ray of Light ending at the end of TLJ, this movie is pretty damn bleak, even more bleak than TESB or even ROTS.

Episode IX really better have a kickass come-from-behind victory for the good guys to make up for TLJ. (Except that might be too much of a retread of Return of the Jedi. Ugh. This is a dilemma.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp, I can't disagree with any of your criticisms.

Sutehp wrote:
With TLJ, I think the opposite is happening: I walked out of TLJ thinking that it was a great film (if not as good as TESB and RO), but after realizing just how tragic TLJ is in retrospect, my opinion of it is (or might be, anyway) gradually souring.

That doesn't seem to be an uncommon phenomena, but then again I had heard of hatred for the film right off the bat too. I wonder how much of the souring experience in general (not you) is due to influence from other fans. The franchise has been heavy with bashwagons since 1997, and so many fanboys seem to lack any original thought. I actually read on Facebook today someone saying they hate the film and to find out why, just go to YouTube and search for opinion videos on TLJ! Just letting other people think and speak for them. Sad.

Or is there some inherent quality of TLJ that tricks people into enjoying it at first, and then later when they think about it more they are like, hey, wait a minute? I really don't know because I don't experience drastic changes in opinions for SW films. I'm not a hater but my initial gut feelings about TLJ are what I still feel about it. I think I tried not to focus on the negative reactions at first in the interest of giving it a fair chance and not letting them distract from any enjoyment of the film for my first few viewings.

Sutehp wrote:
I've never been a fan of Downer Endings and even with the Ray of Light ending at the end of TLJ, this movie is pretty damn bleak, even more bleak than TESB or even ROTS.

I'm not generally a fan of downer endings in movies either, TESB and RotS being exceptions because: Star Wars. Yes TLJ definitely took TESB and dialed the bleakness up several notches, but I wouldn't say that TLJ is lot more bleak then RotS. The Chancellor turned out to be a Sith Lord controlling both sides of the war, the Jedi Order was destroyed, and the Republic transformed into the Empire. The trilogy's main protagonist turned to the Dark Side, killed a bunch of Jedi and his wife, and became a de-limbed and melty-skinned cyborg. In RotS, the Ray of Light is only two little babies. In TLJ there is still a Falconful of Resistance, the signal that went throughout the Outer Rim, the Legend of Luke Skywalker, and Broom Boy. The big difference with the tragedy of RotS and RO is that they are prequels so we knew exactly where the rays of light were shining to, ANH. With TLJ, we don't know where it is going, so the tragic effect is amplified.

Sutehp wrote:
Episode IX really better have a kickass come-from-behind victory for the good guys to make up for TLJ.

Exactly! When we react to each film, and rank them against each other, we are largely considering them as individual movies more than looking at the bigger picture of the overall trilogy arc. As a kid I refused to even rank the original three films because I liked to say I view the trilogy as one three-act story. For the prequels I maintained that because I wanted to wait until Lucas' 6-film saga was complete before trying to rank them. It wasn't until late 2005 or maybe 2006 before I really evaluated them as individual films and formulated my rankings (although I think that deep down inside I always truly loved ANH the most through them all). The obvious purpose of TLJ's bleakness is to make Episode IX all the more dramatic. Maybe, just maybe, TLJ won't seem so bad after the trilogy is completed. But of course that doesn't really help us enjoy TLJ now.

Sutehp wrote:
Except that might be too much of a retread of Return of the Jedi. Ugh. This is a dilemma.

I admit that a lot of the appeal of TFA for me is that it is a well done SW reprise of ANH, my favorite film. TLJ has so many similarities to other SW films that I almost think that Rian Johnson had an actual laundry list of similarities to incorporate into TLJ. I wouldn't expect a large degree of originality in Episode IX. At this point, I'll be really happy if Episode IX is a good reprise of RotJ.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
When I walked out of the theater in Dec 2015, I was disappointed in TFA because it seemed to be too much of a retread of ANH, but the passage of time improved my opinion of TFA. With TLJ, I think the opposite is happening: I walked out of TLJ thinking that it was a great film (if not as good as TESB and RO), but after realizing just how tragic TLJ is in retrospect, my opinion of it is (or might be, anyway) gradually souring.
You perspective is interesting.

I too did not enjoy TFA much on first viewing. It was far too much of a rehash of ANH but with more explosions and a super hero action girl for a protagonist instead of a humble moisture farmer. With the fights and SFX all dialed up to 11. And the doomsday device was painfully silly. But on subsequent viewing, like with Jar Jar in TPM, I found the silliness of TFA was less painful once I knew to expect it.

And one good thing came out of seeing TFA. It made it painfully obvious that we weren't supposed to get a new story, just a different version of the same fairy tale. That perspective made TLJ much easier viewing for me than it otherwise might have been. Luke dying at the end was expected rather than surprising or tragic since he was simply fulfilling the role of Old Ben before him and we know how that turned out in the end. The Rebellion being nearly wiped out was just the retreat at Hoth, but dialed up to 11 like most everything else in the newest trilogy to be.

Whill wrote:
I wouldn't say that TLJ is lot more bleak then RotS.
RotS is not just bleak, it's horrific. Obi-Wan leaving his apprentice, his best friend, his brother to die in great agony as his maimed and crippled body is slowly incinerated by lava is one of the most horrific actions by an ostensible hero that I've ever seen in cinema. It makes the casual cruelty of the antiheroes of films like Mad Max or Dirty Harry seem like nothing.

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The big difference with the tragedy of RotS and RO is that they are prequels so we knew exactly where the rays of light were shining to, ANH. With TLJ, we don't know where it is going, so the tragic effect is amplified.
Good observation. I agree this makes the tragedy of TLJ feel worse. But for me, the obvious retelling of the same story in the newest films has a similar effect of making what is a worse disaster than ESB seem not so bad.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Imagine what would have happened in Lord of the Rings if Gondor called for aid and the people of Rohan collectively said "Go up against Sauron? Screw that, not my problem!"


Coincidentally, I'm playing LOTRO, and just went through the history portion where the Men of the Mountain say just that to Isildur.

My solace on the message not being received is the great speed at which TLJ occured... less than a standard day. While the OT and the PT had years between sequels, the ST is leaving barely hours... really, it's been a pretty breakneck pace since Lore San Tekka died on Jakku. A few standard days, possibly less than a standard month.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's alot to digest from everyone's replies to my post and I'll get back to all of that. But first, I want to address this:

Bren wrote:
Whill wrote:
I wouldn't say that TLJ is lot more bleak then RotS.
RotS is not just bleak, it's horrific. Obi-Wan leaving his apprentice, his best friend, his brother to die in great agony as his maimed and crippled body is slowly incinerated by lava is one of the most horrific actions by an ostensible hero that I've ever seen in cinema. It makes the casual cruelty of the antiheroes of films like Mad Max or Dirty Harry seem like nothing.


I can understand how a casual viewing of this scene might make Obi-wan seem like a heartless anti-hero, but the novelization of ROTS puts the reader in the mind of Obi-wan during this scene. And remember, this is Obi-wan Kenobi we're talking about here, one of the most kind-hearted characters in all of Star Wars. Obi-wan is not the type of person who would Mercy Kill a sentient being if there was any other alternative. (Although he wouldn't have any problem mercy killing a dangerous animal since we see him giving the coup de grace to that acklay on Geonosis in AOTC.) Remember, Anakin was completely defenseless since he had just lost both his legs and his non-cybernetic arm and Kenobi had just picked Anakin's lightsaber (his only weapon) off the ground. The reason that Obi-wan left Anakin there on Muastafar was precisely because he refused to murder Anakin. Obi-wan is such a Friend to All Living Things that he sees even a Mercy Kill as outright murder. So when confronted with a dilemma that he doesn't know how to solve, he did what he always does in such situations: he steps back and leaves it to the will of the Force.

As for Bren's conclusion that Obi-wan abandoning Anakin to the mercies of the burning Mustafarian shore was an act of cruelty, I have to disagree. Obi-wan had tears on his face and had just finished telling Anakin that he loved him like a brother as he walks away. It wasn't cruelty that Obi-wan was feeling that night on Mustafar, it was regret. Obi-wan wasn't thinking "man, I hope that traitorous bastard burns to death," he was thinking "I failed my brother and now he's irredeemable and the entire galaxy has fallen into darkness because of it." These aren't the actions or feelings of an uncaring anti-hero like Mad Max or Dirty Harry, but quite the opposite.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
RotS is not just bleak, it's horrific. Obi-Wan leaving his apprentice, his best friend, his brother to die in great agony as his maimed and crippled body is slowly incinerated by lava is one of the most horrific actions by an ostensible hero that I've ever seen in cinema. It makes the casual cruelty of the antiheroes of films like Mad Max or Dirty Harry seem like nothing.

My, how dramatic! I mostly agree with Sutehp on this. Obi-Wan is not some evil monster who wanted Anakin to suffer for his betrayal. I think the answer is pretty much right there in the script and the music.

What may be obscuring it for some is the clunky plotting and dialogue. Earlier in the film, Obi-Wan objected to Yoda sending him to kill Anakin out of love and compassion for him. He knew what needed to be done, but he didn't want to the one to do it. That dialogue was obviously there to explain Obi-Wan later leaving him there to die. And right before the maiming, Obi-Wan gave Anakin a final warning to try to appeal to his reason in hopes that Anakin may relent from his dark path. It's over, Don't try it, I have the high ground. But overconfidence was Anakin's weakness (a common trait for Lucas villains), he tried it, and it all happened so fast but I guess the only way for Obi-Wan to defend himself from being killed, outside of killing Anakin, was by de-limbing him. Obi-Wan didn't kill him again out of ridiculous hope that Anakin would return to the light because he just couldn't bring himself to kill Anakin. But Anakin committed himself to the Dark Side by screaming "I hate you!" Obi-Wan couldn't kill a defenseless Anakin but he could walk away and let him die, resigned that his training had failed to prevent Anakin from turning to the Dark Side. Obi-Wan not mercy killing Anakin was out of weakness, sure, but not horrific evil. (A weakness that Mace Windu didn't have when trying to kill Palpatine.)

And you should close your eyes and really listen to the music of The Immolation Scene. The music totally sells what Lucas' writing and directing don't. It's heartbreaking. The music does not reflect Anakin's suffering and anger and hatred. The music expresses what Obi-Wan is feeling about it. It's not evil. It's not horror. It's utter sadness and regret and loss.
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