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Rules for Environmental Conditions
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ship projecting a force field maintaining a 1 atmosphere pressure that is not breathable but prevents them from needing to take time to get on a space suit is a good explanation for the atmosphere, but I have a much harder time with the Falcon projecting gravity underneath the characters' feet so they could walk around the ship in approximately 1g. As far as ridiculous scientific gobbledegook goes, the space slug having the natural ability to manipulate gravity to navigate asteroid fields explains the the gravity, atmosphere, and space slug locomotion, so I feel it is a more holistic explanation.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The ship projecting a force field maintaining a 1 atmosphere pressure that is not breathable but prevents them from needing to take time to get on a space suit is a good explanation for the atmosphere, but I have a much harder time with the Falcon projecting gravity underneath the characters' feet so they could walk around the ship in approximately 1g. As far as ridiculous scientific gobbledegook goes, the space slug having the natural ability to manipulate gravity to navigate asteroid fields explains the the gravity, atmosphere, and space slug locomotion, so I feel it is a more holistic explanation.

The ship already generates a 1G artificial gravity field; I don't see a problem with temporarily expanding that outside the ship, too.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I forget. But it's either that or believe that asteroids maintain a somewhat viable atmosphere.


Since they were inside that slug's gullet, i think it was the beast projecting it!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
The ship projecting a force field maintaining a 1 atmosphere pressure that is not breathable but prevents them from needing to take time to get on a space suit is a good explanation for the atmosphere, but I have a much harder time with the Falcon projecting gravity underneath the characters' feet so they could walk around the ship in approximately 1g. As far as ridiculous scientific gobbledegook goes, the space slug having the natural ability to manipulate gravity to navigate asteroid fields explains the the gravity, atmosphere, and space slug locomotion, so I feel it is a more holistic explanation.

The ship already generates a 1G artificial gravity field; I don't see a problem with temporarily expanding that outside the ship, too.

As Star Wars fans we all have our own individual tolerances for the scientific realities of Star Wars. I see our difference in how we think of artificial gravity working as drastic. Please forgive the crudeness of this diagram. Imagine the landing gear as there and the Falcon is landed inside the space slug.


For me, the easiest way to swallow this pill is if artificial gravity works as much like natural gravity as possible. Natural gravity pulls physical objects with mass together. I envision such a thing as physical "gravity plating" built into the ventral-most flooring of any area you want artificial gravity. The green bar in the ship is an approximation and the green arrows represent the pull of gravity towards the gravity plating. Artificial gravity is directional so it pulls strait "down" on what is "above" it (dorsal to ventral), so the top of the ship would have virtually the same gravity as inside the ship, but there wouldn't be any gravity under or beside the ship. The artificial gravity may be adjustable in level, but the gravity plates are physical objects generating gravity that pulls other physical objects strait towards them.

Maybe the gravity plating can work both ways and that is what is holding the Falcon to the belly of the space slug. Maybe the Falcon can even generate artificial gravity in all directions, but that would still only make sense to me if the objects around Falcon were attracted strait to the Falcon.

The red is your description of artificial gravity. The ship projects a field of energy below and around the ship, and this invisible field of energy has gravity in a direction away from ship. You have no problem with that, but that is like fantasy magic compared to my model. It's like the Falcon is casting a spell and temporally imbuing the guts of the space slug with gravity so the characters can go out and walk around on it!

Of course, you should have it work in whatever way it works best for you. I just think there is a significant difference when you seem to dismiss the difference as trivial. If the space slug has the natural ability to manipulate gravity, that explains the gravity under the ship without the fantastic projected artificial gravity plane of energy, and how the space slugs move around an asteroid field.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if it were an aspect of space slugs and not starship systems, Han would’ve known right away that they weren’t in a normal asteroid. Even if he knew absolutely nothing about space slugs, he should be more than familiar enough with the Falcon’s capabilities to know the ship isn’t generating the gravity, which should’ve started him wondering right away as to what is.

As for the tech, this is a universe where thousands of g’s of gravity can be neutralized with little apparent effort. It’s not such a stretch to imagine extending a 1-g field a few meters beyond its normal radius for a few minutes.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But if it were an aspect of space slugs and not starship systems, Han would’ve known right away that they weren’t in a normal asteroid. Even if he knew absolutely nothing about space slugs, he should be more than familiar enough with the Falcon’s capabilities to know the ship isn’t generating the gravity, which should’ve started him wondering right away as to what is.

That's a good point, which brings to mind another possibility, one where there was no ship-generated gravity at all and it was all inertia.

Maybe Han wanted to shut down the artificial gravity of the ship to effect repairs on the hyperdrive. If the asteroid was rotating, and they landed on a "cave" (space slug belly) "wall" oriented such that the bottom of the ship was opposite the center of the rotation, they could use the "centripetal force" effect of the asteroid's rotation as gravity just like how my washer's spin cycle pulls the water from my clothes. When Han said that one will do nicely, he could have been looking for a larger asteroid with the proper rotation and a tunnel where they could find the just the right distance from the center of the asteroid to achieve a net result of approximately 1g in force pulling on the ventral side of the ship.

Han seemed surprised by the moisture outside the ship so that would mean that at least some water vapor had to have already been present before they got there. It is not unreasonable that large asteroids that have been spinning for billions of years could have pockets of collected gases trapped inside by the inertia of the rotation. (But like you said, the Falcon could still vent some compressed gas from the ship within a force field like space hangers to create the proper air pressure needed outside for them to walk around in it comfortably.)

So this new theory allows for everything we see and Han to not realize they were inside of a giant space slug. This eliminates the need for the space slug to have the fantastic ability to generate or manipulate gravity. Maybe they get where they are going by bouncing from asteroid to asteroid like a spring. And this also allows artificial gravity to work like I imagine it where physical gravity plating pulls matter towards it without projected invisible energy fields that have their own gravity pulling things away from the ship. I really do love these talks that we have!
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually don't have a problem with space slugs being able to manipulate gravity; the SW Sourcebook describes them as being able to "swim through space" so obviously some natural mechanism must allow that, and the natural ability to generate and maintain a directional gravity field is a simple-enough explanation. It also adds to their potential value, as discussed here. However, I don't think the ability to manipulate gravity necessitates that ability be "on" at all times, certainly not while "resting" inside an asteroid.

Personally, I'm sticking with my original theory of allowing ships to temporarily generate g-fields in their immediate vicinity, both because it works well as an explanation for what we see on-screen in ESB and because it lays the groundwork for broader usage by player characters in-universe in similar situations.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I actually don't have a problem with space slugs being able to manipulate gravity; the SW Sourcebook describes them as being able to "swim through space" so obviously some natural mechanism must allow that, and the natural ability to generate and maintain a directional gravity field is a simple-enough explanation. It also adds to their potential value, as discussed here. However, I don't think the ability to manipulate gravity necessitates that ability be "on" at all times, certainly not while "resting" inside an asteroid.

That makes sense. I'm glad my explanation no longer relies on active gravity generation from the space slug.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Personally, I'm sticking with my original theory of allowing ships to temporarily generate g-fields in their immediate vicinity, both because it works well as an explanation for what we see on-screen in ESB and because it lays the groundwork for broader usage by player characters in-universe in similar situations.

Fair enough, but I'm ok with my PCs not being able to extend energy fields that have their own gravity at a different angle than projected by the ship. Despite the miracles of lightsabers, hyperdrives and planet killers, Star Wars has a general anti-technology message which I really take to heart. Star Wars already has so many outrageous technologies as it is so I don't feel the need to make them more outrageous than they need to be to explain what we see on screen. My Star Wars universe works best for me if magical "Guardians of the Galaxy" type of technology is kept to a minimum, and my SWU has to work for me before it can work for my players.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certainly not advocating for characters to walk on the walls or the ceilings. I just picture this running in the background to explain why characters can disregard the various hazards of deep space and simply throw on a breath mask and step outside.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At Whill's request, I'm reposting these rules as they appeared in Issue 2 of the Adventurer's Journal, for ease of reference in combination with my other house rules.

Atmosphere Types:
Most stellar bodies of significant size have atmospheres (there are exceptions; some planets may have had their atmosphere ripped away by a near pass with a rogue planet or some similar cataclysm). Gas giant atmospheres are often composed of methane, ammonia and various hydrocarbons (Type IV), although a very small number of gas giants have been discovered with a breathable atmosphere within a limited biozone (Bespin being the prime example). Atmospheres are classified in a very simple system based on how far they deviate from human norm, but this system does not take into account the many ways in which atmospheres can vary. It is up to the GM to determine the specifics of a given atmosphere.
    Type I (Breathable)
    A Type I Atmosphere has the proper mixture of oxygen, nitrogen and other trace gases so that humans and comparable species can breathe it unassisted. These atmospheres may have contaminants that have long-term detrimental effects, but on the whole, they are safe to breathe normally.

    Type II (Breath Mask Suggested)
    Type II Atmospheres can support life without use of a breath mask, but either due to too much or too little atmospheric pressure or oxygen, or unusual gases or contaminants, it is recommended that a breath mask be worn. Without a breath mask, detrimental effects, such as slowed reactions, reduced brain activity, poisoning, or a myriad of other effects can begin to occur within just a few hours of exposure. Many alien species are native to Type II Atmospheres, and can comfortably breathe them without having to resort to breath masks.

    Type III (Breath Mask Required)
    Type III Atmospheres are unbreathable without a breath mask, again due to a number of possible characteristics. The atmosphere could be highly poisonous, or simply not have enough oxygen to be breathable. Characters without breath masks can begin to suffer detrimental effects immediately. A small number of alien species are native to Type III Atmospheres, and can breathe their own atmosphere unaided.

    Type IV (Environment Suit Required)
    Type IV Atmospheres are not only poisonous; they are so reactive that they will cause injury to persons who are exposed to them. Environment suits, spacesuits or life-support equipment is required to venture through the atmosphere, or characters will suffer burns and other grievous injuries. If the planet is Frigid, a thermal suit may be necessary. These atmospheres may also be corrosive, flammable or highly explosive.

    Type 0 (Space Suit Required)
    Type 0 Atmospheres are essentially nonexistent, either the vacuum of space, or close enough not to matter. Type 0 Atmospheres are unsurvivable in anything less than a space suit. Planets without an atmosphere typically have much greater temperature variations because there is no atmosphere to disperse solar energy (on the sun side) or retain heat (on the night side).

Temperature Types:
This classification represents the average temperature on the planet's surface. Most planets have several varying temperature bands, from the coldest (polar regions) to warmest (equatorial region). The "true" temperature of an area can also be altered by local geographic features. In addition, temperature ranges can be affected by a planet's orbit and rotation; a region with moderate temperatures during the day can become much cooler at night, and temperatures can vary greatly due to seasonal changes.
    Searing (57C / 135F or more)*
    Searing planets are hostile to most life forms, although standing bodies of water are possible so long as the average temperature isn't near the boiling point (100 degrees C). Most civilizations will tend to cluster near the more moderate polar regions, or underground.

    Hot (35C-56C / 95F-134F)
    Hot planets, while generally uncomfortable, are not nearly as hostile as searing planets, and are survivable so long as appropriate steps are taken.

    Temperate (5C-34C / 41F-94F)
    Temperate planets are in the most comfortable temperature bands for humans and other life forms

    Cold (-20-4C / -4F-40F)
    Cold planets are uncomfortable but survivable. Most cold planets do not support a huge number of life forms, but life can still adapt to planetary conditions. Plant life may be common if it contains compounds that prevent vital water-based fluids from freezing. Hoth during the day is a good example of a Cold planet (at night, it drops to Frigid)

    Frigid (-21C / -5F or less)*
    Frigid planets are often inhospitable. Depending on hydrosphere conditions, they may be covered in glaciers.

    Note for GMs: The temperatures listed are intended as a representative range, not exact science.

    *Searing and Frigid Temperatures are not intended to represent a hard limit on the potential for damaging temperatures. The surface of Venus, for example, averages 462C (864F), and would qualify as a Lethal Environment just on temperature alone. GMs, use your discretion when determining exactly far outside the norm a planet’s temperature is.

The Rules:
For the purposes of this system, a human standard environment is considered Type I Temperate. For every step by which the environment deviates from Type I Temperate, it becomes increasingly hostile to human life, and by extension, most alien characters. To generate the results, compare the number of deviations to the following chart:
    1 = Strenuous (1D Damage/hour, +1D every additional hour)
    2 = Extreme (1D Damage/10 minutes, +1D every additional 10 minutes)
    3 = Dangerous (1D Damage/minute, +1D every additional minute)
    4 = Hazardous (1D Damage/round, +1D every additional round)
    5 = Hostile (2D Damage/round, +2D every additional round)
    6 = Lethal (3D Damage/round, +3D every additional round)
For example, on a cold night in winter, a Type I Temperate atmosphere may become a Type I Cold atmosphere for a few hours, causing an unprotected character with low Strength or other health issue to freeze to death. On the other end of the scale, a character suddenly exposed to full vacuum without a protective suit would find themselves in a Type IV Frigid atmosphere, and would have to take immediate action to avoid death.


Long-Term Effects:

Atmospheric conditions do exist that take much longer to have an effect, measured in days or weeks rather than hours or minutes. These rules are designed to represent the sorts of rapid-acting environmental hazards that characters might face over the course of a single gaming session. However, they can be used as a basis for more long-term effects, such as an environmental condition (volcanic ash or some other form of toxic chemical) that inflicts 1D damage per week, plus 1D for each additional week, which is slowly killing the character over time instead of within hours or minutes.


Aliens & Their Natural Habitat:

While the vast majority of alien races in the SWU can live without issue in human-standard environments, there are notable exceptions, such as the Kel Dor or the Breather sub-species of the Gand race. For such races, a human-standard environment would qualify as a Type III or IV, and require some form of protective gear (see below) to be able to operate normally in a human-standard environment. It is recommended that players who wish to play alien characters who are not native to Type I environments discuss the specifics with the GM, and make sure to take into account appropriate protective gear as part of your character’s starting equipment.


Protective Equipment:

In reaction to the variety of potentially hostile environments that can be encountered in the galaxy, a wide variety of protective clothing and equipment has been invented in response.


    Exposure Suit (General)
    Cost (Availability): 300 (2)
    Effect: Negates 1 level of Increased Temperature

    Insulated Suit (Cold)
    Cost (Availability): 300 (2)
    Effect: Negates 1 level of Reduced Temperature

    Refrigerated Suit (Arid)
    Cost (Availability): 400 (2)
    Effect: Negates up to 2 levels of Increased Temperature

    Thermal Suit (Cold Weather)
    Cost (Availability): 400 (2)
    Effect: Negates up to 2 levels of Reduced Temperature

    Pressure Suit
    Cost (Availability): 400 (2)
    Effect: Negates up to 2 levels of Atmosphere Type Variation if due to pressure.

    Breath Mask
    Cost (Availability): 50 (1)
    Effect: Negates up to 2 levels of Atmosphere Type Variation for 1 hour.
    Note: Some breath masks may also be equipped with protective goggles, depending on conditions.

    Environmental Suit, Emergency
    Cost (Availability): 800 (2)
    Effect: Negates up to 3 Levels of Atmosphere Type Variation.
    Note: This suit provides full body protection, and includes a breath mask and protective face shield. Suits are also susceptible to puncture damage. If the wearer takes puncture damage of Wounded or worse, the suit develops a leak, and shifts one level on the Environmental Damage Chart, which stacks with any additional leaks.

    Environmental Suit, Utility
    Cost (Availability): 1,200 (2)
    Effect: Negates up to 3 Levels of Atmosphere Type Variation and up to 2 Levels of Temperature Variation.
    Note: This suit provides full body protection, and includes a breath mask and protective face shield. Suits are also susceptible to puncture damage. If the wearer takes puncture damage of Wounded or worse, the suit develops a leak (see above).

    Environmental Suit, Quality
    Cost (Availability): 1,600 (2)
    Effect: Negates up to 3 Levels of Atmosphere Type Variation and up to 2 Levels of Temperature Variation.
    Note: This suit provides full body protection, and includes a breath mask and protective face shield. Suits are also susceptible to puncture damage, but the Quality Suit is equipped with an instant-seal layer that seals any leaks. If the wearer takes puncture damage of Mortally Wounded or worse, the suit develops a leak (see above), and shifts one level on the Environmental Damage Chart, which stacks with any additional leaks.

    Atmosphere Tank
    Cost (Availability): 100 (2)
    Effect: Increases the duration of a Breath Mask by 2 hours per tank

    Rebreather
    Cost (Availability): 300 (2)
    Effect: Allows Breath Mask to function for 12 hours

    Space Suit, Emergency
    Cost (Availability): 1,000 (2)
    Effect: Allows the wearer to ignore all Atmosphere and Temperature effects.
    Notes:
    -Emergency Space Suits are not built to withstand extensive exposure. They begin to leak after 72 hours of use. For game purposes, after 72 hours of use, the suit takes 1D of Damage (resists at 2D), plus 1D per every additional 12 hours. Once the suit takes a damage result of Wounded or better, it develops a leak, and shifts one level on the Environmental Damage Chart, which stacks with any additional leaks.
    -Suits are also susceptible to puncture damage. If the wearer takes puncture damage of Wounded or worse, the suit develops a leak (see above).

    Space Suit, Utility
    Cost (Availability): 1,500 (2)
    Effect: Allows the wearer to ignore all Atmosphere and Temperature effects.
    Notes:
    -Utility Space Suits are much more durable than Emergency Space Suits, and can last for hundreds of hours without loss of pressure or breakdown of radiation protection.
    -Suits are susceptible to puncture damage. If the wearer takes puncture damage of Wounded or worse, the suit develops a leak (see above), and shifts one level on the Environmental Damage Chart, which stacks with any additional leaks.

    Space Suit, Quality
    Cost (Availability): 2,000 (2)
    Effect: Allows the wearer to ignore all Atmosphere and Temperature effects.
    Notes:
    -Quality Space Suits have similar durability to Utility Space Suits, and can last for hundreds of hours without loss of pressure or breakdown of radiation protection.
    -Suits are susceptible to puncture damage, but the Quality Suit is equipped with an instant-seal layer that seals any leaks. If the wearer takes puncture damage of Mortally Wounded or worse, the suit develops a leak (see above), and shifts one level on the Environmental Damage Chart, which stacks with any additional leaks.

_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose the next step from this will be combined stats for protective equipment that combines protection rules for this, fire damage and radiation damage. Probably would need to update the stats for the various forms of Stormtrooper Armor, too; I recall working up an appendix for how they all resisted various environments, but I need to track it down...

EDIT: Found it.

Appendix
    -Droids are much more resistant to environmental conditions, primarily by dint of not needing to breathe. A droid may ignore 1 level of Temperature deviation, and 3 levels of Atmospheric deviation (most droids are not hardened, for example, against vacuum).

    -Some droids (particularly Astromechs, but others as well) are designed specifically for operations in the vacuum of space, and may ignore environmental conditions completely, as though they were wearing a full Space Suit.

    -All types of Storm Trooper Armor offer varying degrees of resistance to environmental conditions, depending on their design, and may ignore up to 3 levels of Atmospheric deviation.

    -Most Stormtrooper Armor (Standard, Seatrooper, Scout, Commando, Rad-Zone, Coruscant Guard and Royal Guard) ignores 1 level of Temperature deviation (hot or cold).

    -Snowtrooper Armor ignores up to 2 levels of negative Temperature deviation.

    -Sandtrooper Armor ignores up to 2 levels of positive Temperature deviation.

    -Spacetrooper Armor functions as a Quality Space Suit.

    -The Force Power Control Breathing may be used to resist Atmospheric deviation. Modify the power as follows:
      -Reduce Alter Difficulty to Moderate.

      -On a Success, the Jedi may ignore 1 level of Atmospheric deviation, plus 1 level for every 10 points by which his roll beat the Alter Difficulty.

    -The Force Power Absorb/Dissipate Energy may be used to resist Temperature deviation, both by absorbing and dissipating heat in hot climes and by absorbing and conserving their own body heat in cold climes. At a Base Difficulty of Easy, a Jedi using Absorb/Dissipate Energy may ignore 1 Level of Temperature deviation, plus 1 Level for every 10 points by which his Control roll succeeded.

_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2023 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks! And thanks for adding them to your index of house rules. Good stuff!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It occurs to me that I need to work out how being underwater counts as environmental damage, too…
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work.. Love the ramping up of damage.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2023 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks. I recall that being both a key point to the rule and one of the hardest parts to come up with.

Another thought: how would you handle a Survival skill roll affecting the Damage? It seems an obvious practical use for the skill, so I’d like to hear your suggestions on how to rule it.
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