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Gray Jedi by the rules?
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Purzelkater
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I'm not aware of any ethical system that allows you to balance the scales by saving 1, 2, 10, or even 100 people to excuse murdering* or torturing someone just because you are angry at them.


You are right, to kill someone just of anger gives you a DSP (rightly, I would say). But by the rules you can clear a DSP (not easy but possible). And you can still get FP.

But as a force user (not just a Jedi) there are many more situations you can receive DSPs. Lets say there is a group of innocent people on a balcony and an evil bounty hunter is trying to kill them. Now you are using Force Push to save the people, the bounty hunter is falling down and dies because of his injury after the fall. By the rules you will receive as DSP immediately because of killing someone with Force Push.

Or using Control Mind will give you a DSP immediately... "This are not the droids you are looking for!"... poor Obi-Wan... ^^

There are many more situations you can get DSPs. Well to save life could give you a FP too, but with getting more and more DSP too it would be very difficult to be a playable character.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I'm not aware of any ethical system that allows you to balance the scales by saving 1, 2, 10, or even 100 people to excuse murdering* or torturing someone just because you are angry at them.


It's whatever ethical system that allowed Darth Vader to be redeemed.


-----

When I was running a game centered around a group of young jedi padawns I had a system where certain actions that were questionable earned the characters 'confusion points'.

A confusion point was a potential Dark side point.

They had to meditate on the subject; seeking the advice of a senior and presumably wiser Jedi would give them a bonus to their meditation roll.

If successful they could safely dispel one or more confusion points.

If unsuccessful, or if allowed to fester too long or accumulate too much, they would inevitably get shifted over to DSPs.

The idea behind this system was to allow the jedi to make mistakes and to reinforce the monastic order they belonged to by encouraging them to meditate, contemplate their position within the universe and the Force, and to seek out their mentors.

So in practice, a Jedi might use the force to help him in an overwhelming attack against a foe. But did he use anger? If he did he may have touched the dark side, even briefly.

If the contemplation/ meditation roll is successful, the Jedi may have accepted that he had indeed been angry. Knowing this and accepting it is the first step in strengthening the resolve to remain in control of themselves...thus the confusion point dissipates.
Failing the meditation roll might mean that the Jedi fails to recognize that they did indeed tap into anger or might legitimately believe that it was okay to do so, thus internalizing the dark side... and converting that confusion point into a DSP.

It brought a lot of thinking about ethical grey areas and created a system where the Jedi order could justify and cleanse themselves of some pretty questionable actions if they were wise and contemplative enough to recognize the danger and thus keep themselves insulated from the taint of the Dark Side.

Like Yoda being able to use Force Lightning where a more novice Jedi would be forbidden.

A system like this might be useful to an order of 'Grey Jedi'.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I *do* think it is useful to do is separate "Jedi" from "light side force users" as a concept. It is obviously possible to be a light side force user without being a Jedi.
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Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my current campaign, the Skywalker boys are trying something very much like the Grey-Side Of The Force.

Which is doomed to fall to the Dark Side, for a variety of reasons. But, with the Rebellion floundering around after Hoth, and the Empire being decisively Dark Side, it's looking quite good to the galaxy at large.

Especially as their first major order was to free all the slaves in Hutt Space, taking it over, and declaring it Jedi Protectorate Space.

And, somehow, they got the Mandalorian Warriors on their side to boot!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem I have with 'gray' Jedi and maintaining "balance" is that it flies in the face of the notion of a "balanced" force.

It it implicit, but obvious, that a balanced force is one that has zero corruption from the dark side, NOT an equal mixture of light and dark. In other words, the dark side itself is what wroghts the force out of balance (though, based on the latest trailer, Disney may be planning to muck that up, too).

A gray Jediis probably best played as an honorable ronin, rather than a walking contradiction. The dark side always exacts a toll from those who do business with it... blood in, blood out, so to speak.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
But as a force user (not just a Jedi) there are many more situations you can receive DSPs. Lets say there is a group of innocent people on a balcony and an evil bounty hunter is trying to kill them. Now you are using Force Push to save the people, the bounty hunter is falling down and dies because of his injury after the fall. By the rules you will receive as DSP immediately because of killing someone with Force Push.
Sure. But there are non-lethal choices e.g.
    Yank the weapon from his hand with TK.
    Don't push him all the way off the balcony just push him far enough to give you time to Force Leap up to the balcony.
    Catch him before he hits the ground after you Force Push him off the balcony.

And as a GM I’d be less likely (probably unlikely) to give a Jedi who tried not to kill the evil bounty hunter a DSP even if he tried to catch the bounty hunter but failed in the attempt. Intention matters.

Quote:
Or using Control Mind will give you a DSP immediately... "This are not the droids you are looking for!"... poor Obi-Wan... ^^
OB1 used Affect Mind. It doesn't have an automatic DSP penalty.

Quote:
There are many more situations you can get DSPs. Well to save life could give you a FP too, but with getting more and more DSP too it would be very difficult to be a playable character.
Yes it is. Intentionally so.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Bren wrote:
I'm not aware of any ethical system that allows you to balance the scales by saving 1, 2, 10, or even 100 people to excuse murdering* or torturing someone just because you are angry at them.


It's whatever ethical system that allowed Darth Vader to be redeemed.
I don't see that redemption is supposed to imply that turning against the Emperor balanced his evil acts. Just that it allowed him to come back from the Dark Side to the Light.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
When I was running a game centered around a group of young jedi padawns I had a system where certain actions that were questionable earned the characters 'confusion points'.
I like what you have described. It allows learning the rules of the Jedi Order to occur in game rather than requiring players to read the rulebook. And a system like this may work well for the rash Young Jedi PC one of my players is currently running.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

OB1 used Affect Mind. It doesn't have an automatic DSP penalty


Affect mind is different from Control mind..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Quote:

OB1 used Affect Mind. It doesn't have an automatic DSP penalty


Affect mind is different from Control mind..
You are agreeing with me, right?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can neither confirm nor deny any agreeing with you Laughing Laughing

Of course i was..
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