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Quick Blast Radius Rule
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whatever. Go be right in your own SWU; in mine, you’re wrong, and I’m not wasting any more of my time explaining it to you.


Grumpy, grumpy. Wink
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:


Wajeb, the laser blast hits something and it superheats it. Heat makes molecules expand. Superheating molecules expand rapidly in what we call an explosion. Like a potato in a microwave.


I understand, but there is very little evidence of blasters having a blast radius shown in the films, which is THE source material.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like both changes; the "Use Physical Armor" is simpler and goes with the cinematics I've described, and the 1D reduction per point of miss scales easily... perhaps with a cap of the Scale Modifier, rather than its full damage and scale modifier?

So, for example, let's say I have a 4D Speeder scale weapon. I shoot it at a Character scale target. If I miss by 1, I do 5D character scale damage (effectively). If I miss by 2, I do 4D character scale damage. If I miss by 3, then I've missed by too much, and the bolt missed them entirely. This keeps upscale weapons from being favored grenades. A 4D Walker scale weapon can miss by up to 4 and still do some damage. A 4D capital scale weapon can miss by 12 and still do 4D character scale damage. If the capital scale weapon is targeting a speeder scale vehicle, it can miss by 10 and still be effective... beyond that, and it's just spraying sand and chipping paint.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I understand, but there is very little evidence of blasters having a blast radius shown in the films, which is THE source material.

Go watch what Han Solo’s heavy blaster pistol does to the overhang in Docking Bay 94 (and the stormtroopers standing under it). Scale up accordingly for heavier weapons. Not that I expect it to make a difference.

I also notice you ignored garhkal’s observation that explosive warheads, like proton torpedoes concussion missiles, also lack a blast radius. Care to comment?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
I like both changes; the "Use Physical Armor" is simpler and goes with the cinematics I've described, and the 1D reduction per point of miss scales easily... perhaps with a cap of the Scale Modifier, rather than its full damage and scale modifier?

So, for example, let's say I have a 4D Speeder scale weapon. I shoot it at a Character scale target. If I miss by 1, I do 5D character scale damage (effectively). If I miss by 2, I do 4D character scale damage. If I miss by 3, then I've missed by too much, and the bolt missed them entirely. This keeps upscale weapons from being favored grenades. A 4D Walker scale weapon can miss by up to 4 and still do some damage. A 4D capital scale weapon can miss by 12 and still do 4D character scale damage. If the capital scale weapon is targeting a speeder scale vehicle, it can miss by 10 and still be effective... beyond that, and it's just spraying sand and chipping paint.

The problem I have with this is that it shortchanges low FC / high Damage weapons like proton torpedoes and concussion missiles, which can be reasonably expected to have a larger blast radius (and thus a greater chance of catching a target within it). I also want to preserve the possibility of a character being on the outer edges of the blast (in the 1D-2D Damage range) and still catching a piece of shrapnel for a Wound due to a Wild Dice cascade failure.

For weapons like that, I think their limited supply should be the balancing factor. Sure, you could take out that platoon of stormies with a protorp, but you’ve only got four left, and there’s still that cruiser in orbit.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Whatever. Go be right in your own SWU; in mine, you’re wrong, and I’m not wasting any more of my time explaining it to you.


Grumpy, grumpy. Wink


Let's watch it here, folks. We could spend the rest of the thread circling one another and growling, but it's the sort of thing that gets threads shut down. It would be a shame since there are users who seem to like the idea of the content. Let's keep it content oriented. If you think someone isn't worth replying to with content, then let's just agree to not reply to one another.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Go watch what Han Solo’s heavy blaster pistol does to the overhang in Docking Bay 94 (and the stormtroopers standing under it). Scale up accordingly for heavier weapons. Not that I expect it to make a difference.


You do understand what a blast radius is, right? If I fire a .357 magnum at a wooden door, and the bullet tears the hell out of that door punching a hole in t with kinetic energy, that doesn't mean the .357 magnum has a blast radius.

Those DL-44 shots into the overhang and wall of the entrance to Docking Bay 94 are impressive, but they do not show a blast radius.



Quote:
I also notice you ignored garhkal’s observation that explosive warheads, like proton torpedoes concussion missiles, also lack a blast radius. Care to comment?


Those weapons might have a blast radius. But, I'm not convinced that the rules don't already cover that.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While your snide remark was obviously intended as a subtle insult, I happen to know more about what a blast radius is than you seem to.

In terms of physics, any impact, no matter how small, will have some effect on its surroundings. If we are limiting the term to destructive weaponry, then the same holds true; any impact, no matter how small will have some effect on its surroundings, even if only the “ping!” of a solid bullet bouncing off impregnable armor.

In the case of the Han Solo scene (and, indeed, any scene where a blaster strikes an inorganic object), there is a shower of sparks (or steam, in the case of Hoth), and generally an explosive fracturing of the material around the impact point. Any blast effects from personal energy weapons will, of course, be negligible (superheated sparks, high velocity chips of rock or wood, etc.), but they will still be present. As energy weapons scale up in power, however, the destructive effects will become stronger and more deadly. Any object of sufficiently weak material will absorb more energy than it can physically contain and explosively disintegrate around the point of impact, flinging blast effects in all directions.

What we see in the Han Solo scene is individual shots causing fireballs ~.5 meters across, explosive fracturing of hard surfaces around the point of impact, and fully armored stormtroopers being knocked to the ground, even though the blaster bolts only hit near them.

That’s what a blast radius is.

Now, as far as I am concerned, your argument contributes nothing of value to this conversation:
    -Your initial premise is an inaccurate foregone conclusion, specifically, that the RAW according to WEG is both complete and infallible. WEG themselves specifically stated otherwise (again, read my signature), and evidence of their published errors is also readily available from the members of this forum.

    -You discard and dismiss basic laws of physics regarding the effects of energy transfer, all to avoid acknowledging that your initial false premise might possibly be in error.

    -You support your conclusion with a subjective interpretation of film evidence, and your lack of objectivity is evidenced by your initial false foregone conclusion.

    -The only other evidence you offer is a False Equivalency logical fallacy, by equating a blaster bolt and a bullet from a .357 Magnum, while offering no proof that the two are ballistically identical.

So, in conclusion, I have heard and understood your argument, found it lacking, and dismissed it insofar as it having any value to contribute to my house rule.

That being said, I have no intention of debating this with you any further. If you wish to continue participating in this discussion, I suggest you come up with an alternative line of inquiry.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
That being said, I have no intention of debating this with you any further. If you wish to continue participating in this discussion, I suggest you come up with an alternative line of inquiry.


Well, I'll bow out of this discussion then, in the interest of being civil and keeping everyone happy.

I'll note, though, that at no time have I been upset with you. I'm just showing a different take on the subject.

Move along. Move along. These aren't the droids that you're looking for. Shocked
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Quote:
So its 'even stevens' that there is no damage.. From just standing there and taking the blast in the chest.


Yup. RAW. Same thing with a Wookiee in 2D armor. 9D with an Esoomian.


And look at how many threads we have had concerning the whole bullet proof wookie syndrome.

MrNexx wrote:
I like both changes; the "Use Physical Armor" is simpler and goes with the cinematics I've described, and the 1D reduction per point of miss scales easily... perhaps with a cap of the Scale Modifier, rather than its full damage and scale modifier?.


With the scale modifer making it harder for larger stuff to hit, generally you WILL have total misses under that "1d off for every point you miss by"..
So you might as well just say if the big gun misses, it just misses period..

Quote:
Those weapons might have a blast radius. But, I'm not convinced that the rules don't already cover that.


And in what manner do the rules already have it covered Wajeb?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
With the scale modifer making it harder for larger stuff to hit, generally you WILL have total misses under that "1d off for every point you miss by"..
So you might as well just say if the big gun misses, it just misses period..

Big guns are certainly rare enough that characters won’t run into them often (heavy batteries on a SSD and ISD II, mostly), but I’m not a fan of saying they miss completely. That much power is going to bleed over into a pretty big splash when it hits, which is the reason for this rule in the first place.
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Straxus
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for this, especially when you added the simplified rule so I don't have to divide by 3 Razz

I have an adventure in mind where the PC's will witness the destruction of a city by planetary bombardment. The plan wasn't that the PC's would be anywhere near enough to get hit, but when I read your op I remembered that players will be players... Laughing So it could be really useful to have something if they decide to go in to the danger zone.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less friendly moderator warning here. We watch our tone, or the thread gets locked.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
I like both changes; the "Use Physical Armor" is simpler and goes with the cinematics I've described, and the 1D reduction per point of miss scales easily... perhaps with a cap of the Scale Modifier, rather than its full damage and scale modifier?

So, for example, let's say I have a 4D Speeder scale weapon. I shoot it at a Character scale target. If I miss by 1, I do 5D character scale damage (effectively). If I miss by 2, I do 4D character scale damage. If I miss by 3, then I've missed by too much, and the bolt missed them entirely. This keeps upscale weapons from being favored grenades. A 4D Walker scale weapon can miss by up to 4 and still do some damage. A 4D capital scale weapon can miss by 12 and still do 4D character scale damage. If the capital scale weapon is targeting a speeder scale vehicle, it can miss by 10 and still be effective... beyond that, and it's just spraying sand and chipping paint.

The problem I have with this is that it shortchanges low FC / high Damage weapons like proton torpedoes and concussion missiles, which can be reasonably expected to have a larger blast radius (and thus a greater chance of catching a target within it). I also want to preserve the possibility of a character being on the outer edges of the blast (in the 1D-2D Damage range) and still catching a piece of shrapnel for a Wound due to a Wild Dice cascade failure.

For weapons like that, I think their limited supply should be the balancing factor. Sure, you could take out that platoon of stormies with a protorp, but you’ve only got four left, and there’s still that cruiser in orbit.


Granted, but consider the other side... I've got a Heavy Blaster and am shooting at Storm Troopers. If I miss by 1, do I do 4D physical instead of 5D energy? Sure, the Stormies will probably reduce that damage to nothing, but what if I'm shooting at Ewoks? Limiting it to the scale differential means that same-scale or upscale shots don't have the near-miss effect.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But film evidence shows that's exactly what happens. In the Docking Bay 94 scene, at least one stormtrooper was knocked off his feet by an impact above his head. There is also the battle scene from TFA, where Han uses Chewie's bowcaster to shoot the ground in front of two stormtrooper for an explosive effect that takes them both down.

Naturally, there has to be something there to hit to create that effect, but it is present in the films.
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