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Starting with more experienced characters
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you plan on giving characters extra dice to start their characters, make sure that the extra dice are only for skills and not attributes.

If you notice, all of the advanced characters--the versions of during Jedi, Vader, Palpatine, etc.--are never shown with increased stats. They still add up to their starting dice. It is only their skills and equipment that have grown.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
The last time I did this was to bring in a new player to the game, but a veteran player. I gave them an average number of CPs from our previous adventures and told them how many times we were allowed to advance. Then I asked them how many CPs they think they would have spent in the adventure and subtracted that. They said two. So they got to spend 8 CPs, 5 times, cumulatively. Or keep all 40 CPs and start as a normal character with a ton of CPs.

Does that make sense? Do I need an example to clarify?

He was a veteran player. He did all this and ran it by me before I brought him into the game.

That makes sense. But bringing a new PC into an existing game and starting the whole party off more advanced than RAW are two separate things. To follow discussions about that over the years, I would not give flat bonus skill dice to a PC to "catch him up" to a party that got more advanced through CPs. That's apples and oranges. I would give the new PC skill points to improve the PC in that case, a little lower total amount than what the least advanced PC of the party has built into his character, so the new PC is not too far behind. I keep track over every point expenditure for every PC so the calculation is easy. But my understanding of this thread is that it is about starting the the whole party off higher at the very beginning of the campaign. If the campaign had started with extra skill dice and a new PC is being added later, then he would get the same extra starting skill dice as the others, and a little under the lowest skill point PC build total, so start with the same apples as everyone and almost the same oranges of the least-oranged PC.

MrNexx wrote:
Definitely, but it allows some choice in allocation... skill dice are not the same as force skill dice are not the same as attribute dice, either in cost or effect.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
If you plan on giving characters extra dice to start their characters, make sure that the extra dice are only for skills and not attributes.

Right. Nexx, I was in no way advocating that attribute dice and skill dice be equated for allocation. In my game, all PCs start with exactly 18D in attributes, regardless of species. No, species do not evolve equally. Typical attribute dice totals fluctuate between species and NPCs can have any attribute dice total within the species mins and maxes, but PCs of any playable species are always the same 18D in atrributes. Then starting skill dice allocation is the same for all PCs in the campaign no matter what allocation dice total they are starting with. I handle the Force skills differently than RAW but I never equate attribute dice and skill dice.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the 1E core book templates, Ewoks get the standard starting 18D. This is supported in GG 5 RotJ with Wicket, Chief Chirpa, and Logray.

In the 1E Sourcebook, the Ewok only has 12D in attributes, with a note stating that the 18D version in the core rulebook should be used for player characters.

The average in the game for all species is 12D, where Player Characters get that extra 6D, enabling them to be heroes that shine.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

MrNexx wrote:
Definitely, but it allows some choice in allocation... skill dice are not the same as force skill dice are not the same as attribute dice, either in cost or effect.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
If you plan on giving characters extra dice to start their characters, make sure that the extra dice are only for skills and not attributes.

Right. Nexx, I was in no way advocating that attribute dice and skill dice be equated for allocation. In my game, all PCs start with exactly 18D in attributes, regardless of species. No, species do not evolve equally. Typical attribute dice totals fluctuate between species and NPCs can have any attribute dice total within the species mins and maxes, but PCs of any playable species are always the same 18D in atrributes. Then starting skill dice allocation is the same for all PCs in the campaign no matter what allocation dice total they are starting with. I handle the Force skills differently than RAW but I never equate attribute dice and skill dice.


My point being, though, if we get those starting characters plus X skill dice, then we all make 18D attribute and 7+XD skill character. If we go with starting characters plus Y CP, then I might choose to have a couple extra pips on an attribute, while Wajeb might plow it all into skills, and someone else might make themselves a proper Jedi.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
My point being, though, if we get those starting characters plus X skill dice, then we all make 18D attribute and 7+XD skill character. If we go with starting characters plus Y CP, then I might choose to have a couple extra pips on an attribute, while Wajeb might plow it all into skills, and someone else might make themselves a proper Jedi.

I also disallow increasing attributes after play begins. I guess I might consider a campaign which allowed all PCs to start with 19D or 20D in attributes, but even if I did all the PCs would still have the same value and could not increase attributes after play begins.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
My point being, though, if we get those starting characters plus X skill dice, then we all make 18D attribute and 7+XD skill character. If we go with starting characters plus Y CP, then I might choose to have a couple extra pips on an attribute, while Wajeb might plow it all into skills, and someone else might make themselves a proper Jedi.

I also disallow increasing attributes after play begins. I guess I might consider a campaign which allowed all PCs to start with 19D or 20D in attributes, but even if I did all the PCs would still have the same value and could not increase attributes after play begins.


Which is a crucial difference why dice works for you, but won't work as well in a campaign that doesn't have that restriction.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
I would probably go with the "Create a starting character, then add X CP worth of improvements."

It keeps everyone on the same footing, just without the hassle of organic building.

Buying the improvements pip by pip with CPs is more of a hassle then just granting additional starting skill dice to allocate.


Plus is there a limit you put on how much they can spend to buy UP a skill if going CP wise? IF you say set them to get 12d, 3d max in any one stat, that means you can 'cap them' somewhat...
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tcschenks
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rules of Engagement suggested veteran characters have an additional 4D to 9D in skills. Elite characters have an additional 7D to 12D.

Also, prior to the D20 game, RPGA was using the WEG power level table for D6 characters, based on your total attribute and skill dice:

Quote:

Each adventure which allows players to bring characters will have a recommended Rating and a list of specific things that should be disallowed for characters. Other than these guidelines, you should use your judgment to balance the characters brought to the game with those provided. Characters do not have to begin as beginning characters, so there are no "illegal" characters (just ones which are disallowed for playing the adventure).
To determine the Rating of the characters provided, use the character levels rules on page 46-48 of the 2nd Edition Gamemaster Handbook. These are summarized as follows:
Count the attribute dice
Count the skill dice above and beyond the base attributes. Count skill specializations above the basic skill, not above the developed skill level.
If a character gets dice or loses dice because of special abilities, count the dice for purposes of play balance. Count Force Skill dice as double, so each Force skill die counts as 2 dice.
Count every 5 CPs as 1 die
Count each Force Point as 1 die
Count permanent equipment by its damage dice; count non-permanent equipment (such as blasters) as 1 die per 5 die of damage. Starships and vehicles should not be included.

The Ratings are:

Average = 20 dice
Novice = 21- 35 dice
Veteran = 36-75 dice
Superior = 76-150 dice
Master = 151- and above
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a neat table, but what do they define as "permanent equipment"? Cybernetic implants and droid tools, I am guessing?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tcschenks wrote:
Rules of Engagement suggested veteran characters have an additional 4D to 9D in skills. Elite characters have an additional 7D to 12D.

Cool.

tcschenks wrote:
Also, prior to the D20 game, RPGA was using the WEG power level table for D6 characters, based on your total attribute and skill dice:

Quote:
Each adventure which allows players to bring characters will have a recommended Rating and a list of specific things that should be disallowed for characters. Other than these guidelines, you should use your judgment to balance the characters brought to the game with those provided. Characters do not have to begin as beginning characters, so there are no "illegal" characters (just ones which are disallowed for playing the adventure).
To determine the Rating of the characters provided, use the character levels rules on page 46-48 of the 2nd Edition Gamemaster Handbook. These are summarized as follows:

Count the attribute dice
Count the skill dice above and beyond the base attributes. Count skill specializations above the basic skill, not above the developed skill level.
If a character gets dice or loses dice because of special abilities, count the dice for purposes of play balance. Count Force Skill dice as double, so each Force skill die counts as 2 dice.
Count every 5 CPs as 1 die
Count each Force Point as 1 die
Count permanent equipment by its damage dice; count non-permanent equipment (such as blasters) as 1 die per 5 die of damage. Starships and vehicles should not be included.

The Ratings are:

Average = 20 dice
Novice = 21- 35 dice
Veteran = 36-75 dice
Superior = 76-150 dice
Master = 151- and above

That's cool except that attribute dice and skill dice should not be equated.
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"Would you trade that necklace for a glimpse into your future? ...What do you know of kyber crystals?"

"The Force moves darkly near a creature that’s about to kill... I'm gonna follow Jyn. Her path is clear."

"Tell that to Kanjiklub."
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