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Moving Skills Around
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I'm not sure I follow. The D6 Space skill covers everything Planetary Systems does, but "planetary systems" seems to preclude interstellar space phenomena (outside of planetary systems). Astrography here is not just referring to stars or we'd be right back in the same boat. Here it has a very general space meaning as general knowledge of the galaxy. The geographical type of knowledge for planets and systems, plus interstellar knowledge like "no one has ever made it through that nebula" and "the radiation from the all the black holes in that sector won't let us investigate for too long".

It's a question of terminology for me, in that "Astro" refers to stars (and space, by extension), whereas Planetary Systems quite specifically refers to both the system and the planets within it. Astro would seem to exclude anything other than stars.

Plus, if you move Astrogation to Knowledge, I would think Astrography would be included in that...

Quote:
Or Lightsaber can be an advanced skill that adds to Melee Combat. If you don't have the skill, you can use Melee Combat to fight with it but there is that danger of hurting yourself if you roll poorly as in RAW. The advanced skill just adds to Melee Combat, and just having the advanced skill lessens or eliminates that danger of hurting yourself.

I took a similar route when I wrote up rules for the Seven Forms of Lightsaber Combat, with each Form being an Advanced Skill with Lightsaber as a Prerequisite. If I ever get around to it, I'll go back and split Lightsaber as I described above.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was thinking about this the other day regarding lightsabers.

Im thinking that a lightsaber ought to be wielded like a sword using melee combat (all appropriate risks remain intact). But only a Jedi can have access to the lightsaber skill (or it must be learned from a Jedi).

With the lightsaber skill, the character can do Jedi things (deflect blasters, etc). Rhe regular melee skill would only allow the swinging of a lightsaber, the base damage, etc.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I was thinking about this the other day regarding lightsabers.

Im thinking that a lightsaber ought to be wielded like a sword using melee combat (all appropriate risks remain intact). But only a Jedi can have access to the lightsaber skill (or it must be learned from a Jedi).

With the lightsaber skill, the character can do Jedi things (deflect blasters, etc). Rhe regular melee skill would only allow the swinging of a lightsaber, the base damage, etc.

That's reasonable. So basically the Lightsaber skill is the Lightsaber Combat force skill. IIRC, CR generalized Lightsaber Combat further into a general force combat skill not only requiring a Lightsaber to use.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
The D6 Space skill covers everything Planetary Systems does, but "planetary systems" seems to preclude interstellar space phenomena (outside of planetary systems). Astrography here is not just referring to stars or we'd be right back in the same boat. Here it has a very general space meaning as general knowledge of the galaxy. The geographical type of knowledge for planets and systems, plus interstellar knowledge like "no one has ever made it through that nebula" and "the radiation from the all the black holes in that sector won't let us investigate for too long".

It's a question of terminology for me, in that "Astro" refers to stars (and space, by extension), whereas Planetary Systems quite specifically refers to both the system and the planets within it. Astro would seem to exclude anything other than stars.

I can see where you and anyone who knows that the prefix "astro-" in words literally means "of stars" can feel that way about the terminology, but you're thinking of space as meaning non-planetary. "Astro" means "extraterrestrial", anything outside of Earth including all other planets, because they are all "in space" by our frame of reference grounded on Earth, a civilization that only recently (relatively) sent a tiny population of humans (relatively) beyond Earth's atmosphere. Our fields of science generally pertain to Earth or not-Earth. What else is "in space"? All other planets in the universe.

Astrography is actually a real word that literally means "a scientific analysis and mapping of the stars and planets". So it already includes planets, and D6 Space expanded its definition for a sci-fi setting to include everything that Planetary Systems includes in Star Wars does (general knowledge of geography, weather, life-forms, trade products, settle­ments, technology, government and other general infor­mation about different systems and planets). Astronomy is the knowledge of celestial (above Earth) objects and phenomena, and as a field I follow I can confirm it is very involved with planets in our solar system and extrasolar planets as well. Astrometry is the precise measurement of the positions and motions of celestial bodies which includes planets. Astrodynamics are the dynamics of natural and artificial bodies in outer space which includes planets. Astrophysics is the branch of applied physics that deals with astronomical phenomena which includes planets. In ancient times, astrologies were developed which not only followed the apparent positions and movements of constellations of (actual) stars in the sky, but also tracked of the visible "planets" which at the time were believed to be "wandering stars". "Astro" definitely includes planets and always has.

So astro means stars and everything else in space. Used in Star Wars (or a D6 Space setting that may possibly not have Earth as a frame of reference), it includes all known planets (not all planets but one like here on Earth). So I can understand not wanting to use a term that seems to preclude planets, but I want to use a term that doesn't preclude interstellar phenomena which by definition are outside of "planetary systems". "Astrography" does include planets and can include interstellar phenomena.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Plus, if you move Astrogation to Knowledge, I would think Astrography would be included in that.

Astrography is a rename of an existing Knowledge skill. I never said I was moving Astrogation to Knowledge. In my game, Astrogation is an advanced skill with Astrography (KNO), Navigation (MEC), and Computers (TEC) as prerequisites. Astrogation is navigation through Hyperspace. Realspace is important because all realspace objects cast a gravity shadow into Hyperspace. Astrography is the realspace knowledge and Astrogation builds on that by taking Hyperspace, a whole other dimension of existence, into consideration. My Navigation skill is mundane non-hyperspace navigational abilities like sense of direction, spatial awareness, map reading which can be used on planet surfaces and realspace. Astrogation builds on that by bringing Hyperspace into consideration. Computers is needed because of the necessity to use navicomputers to plot courses through Hyperspace. Astrogation being an advanced skill isn't under any attribute. So yes, Astrography is a part of Astrogation but Astrogation is more because entering, travelling through, and exiting Hyperspace are involved. Astrography alone doesn't at all deal with Hyperspace directly.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
IIRC, CR generalized Lightsaber Combat further into a general force combat skill not only requiring a Lightsaber to use.

Correct. I folded the relevant aspects of Lightsaber Combat into Combat Sense, on the grounds that it is the Jedi who feels the Force flowing through him, regardless of whether he has a lightsaber in his hands or not. I haven't sorted out all the details insofar as how much of a bonus Combat Sense provides, but the basic idea is that it provides a minimum of 2D to the relevant combat skill, plus an additional +1 for every 2-3 points of success (I haven't decided which) by which the character's Sense roll beat the Difficulty roll to bring the power up in the first place.

Quote:
Astrography is actually a real word that literally means "a scientific analysis and mapping of the stars and planets".
Quote:
Astrography is a rename of an existing Knowledge skill. I never said I was moving Astrogation to Knowledge.

My bad. It was mentioned earlier in this topic and I seemed to recall it was your suggestion. That being the case, I agree with you, and I'd probably pair Astrography with Astrogation for my house rule where a good Knowledge roll can generate a bonus to a non-Knowledge skill.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
But are the basics of aiming a pistol accurately really going to be that different when firing a blaster pistol or slug thrower?


Yes, cause a firearm has recoil, windage/distance to worry about (due to bullets dropping where blasters don't).
Who says blasters don't have recoil?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing says they don't but imo it wouldn't be the same as that generated by a slugthrower.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on the way we see them used in the movies they seem to have exactly the same recoil as the firearms we see used in Hollywood movies set on 20th or 21st century earth.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Based on the way we see them used in the movies they seem to have exactly the same recoil as the firearms we see used in Hollywood movies set on 20th or 21st century earth.

Which is to say, some recoil, but less recoil than an ACTUAL firearm.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Bren wrote:
Based on the way we see them used in the movies they seem to have exactly the same recoil as the firearms we see used in Hollywood movies set on 20th or 21st century earth.

Which is to say, some recoil, but less recoil than an ACTUAL firearm.
Its the exact same recoil as movie depictions of actual firearms. You can't compare real firearms to movie blasters. That's comparing bricks to unicorns. You have to compare movie blasters to movie firearms.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Based on the way we see them used in the movies they seem to have exactly the same recoil as the firearms we see used in Hollywood movies set on 20th or 21st century earth.


Well, since many of those weapons were based ON actual firearms, its not surprising..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Its the exact same recoil as movie depictions of actual firearms. You can't compare real firearms to movie blasters. That's comparing bricks to unicorns. You have to compare movie blasters to movie firearms.

I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider non-SWU films to be SWU canon. Modern firearms have an observably harder recoil than blaster weapons in the SWU. AFAIAC, that relative ease of operation is one of the explanations for the popularity of blasters over firearms in-universe.

Several people have suggested recoil rules over the years. For me, I consider the minimal recoil on blasters to be the baseline in the SWU for the MAP RAW. Firearms would have a heavier recoil, which would then affect the MAP when firing multiple shots in a round (+1 per -1D for lighter weapons, -2 per -1D for heavier weapons like shotguns and machineguns). Another possibility is for higher end, repulsor-fired firearms featuring built-in inertial dampers that absorb enough of the recoil to reduce it down to that of Blaster weapons (and thus use the same MAP rule).
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do firearms even exist in Star Wars movie canon?

CRMcNeill wrote:
I can only speak for myself, but I don't consider non-SWU films to be SWU canon. Modern firearms have an observably harder recoil than blaster weapons in the SWU.
No one has ever seen an actual blaster fired since they don't actually exist. All we've seen are the movie versions. The movie depictions have the same recoil as most movie depictions of firearms. Now if you want to compare the movie depiction of an imaginary weapon to a real life weapon that's fine, but it isn't any more probative than a comparison of movie versions of both the imaginary and the real weapon.

As it is your SWU you can do what you want, but I have to point out that the more unlike the two kinds of weapons are the less reasonable it is for you to combine both weapons under the same skill. And combining the two under the same skill was where you started out in this sub-thread.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Do firearms even exist in Star Wars movie canon?


Yup/ Sand people used them in Ep 1.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC FFG has a ranged combat skill that covers all ranged weapons of any type. I've combined lots of skills but that's too much for my tastes.

In my game the Blaster skill covers all energy weapons. Blaster is still the specific type of energy weapon that it is, but blaster tech is the most common energy weapon so the term "blaster" is colloquially used to refer to all energy weapons in general. This is my rationale for generalizing Blaster without changing the skill's names because I just can't not have "Blaster" on character sheets!

The Flamethrowers skill covers flamethrowers.

Missile Weapons covers modern (in Star Wars terms), more physical projectile shooters like ascension guns, etc.

Missile Weapons (Archaic) covers slugthrowers, firearms, archaic guns. I have rarely ever had them appear in the game. I think Tusken Raiders have had them. And I did have a planet with a 1930s-Earth tech level which was the homeworld of a couple PC, and when they returned to their homeworld for an adventure they were up against them.

Missile Weapons (Primitive) covers bows, etc.
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