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Future Jump Calculations
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C. Those rules in the RAW were NOT contradictory to what was shown in the films, TILL TFA and Rogue One came out though.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
C. Those rules in the RAW were NOT contradictory to what was shown in the films, TILL TFA and Rogue One came out though.

Where in the RAW is safe hyperspace jump distance tied to the ship's hyperdrive multiplier? Not that it isn't a cool idea; it just doesn't fit with what we currently know about the SWU. And while I like the idea of gravity having a stronger effect on ships in hyperspace than in real space (i.e. enough to throw a ship off course if not properly accounted for), I find it difficult to imagine a hyperdrive being completely incapable of functioning in the presence of a gravity field, except in extreme circumstances, such as a black hole or a star's coronal zone.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
The bottom of page 132 basically says that, if you get too close to the Sun's gravity well, then you can't jump to hyperspace. But, the distance from the gravity well where hyperspace jump is possible is not constant. It is variable based on the power of a ship's hyperdrive.

And this description is completely inconsistent with the RAW, and is (AFAIK) unsupported by any other media.


I wasn't arguing RAW one way or the other. Just reporting what I read in the book.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Where in the RAW is safe hyperspace jump distance tied to the ship's hyperdrive multiplier?


I think that it ties to RAW not with the hyperdrive multiplier as such, but more with the input of the astrogater, lowering the target number.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I supect that it depends on several factors.

First off I would think that the longer the trip, the more likely something significant would change, and invalidate the data- or at least make it less safe. Rather than calculations just going bad after a time, I'd suspect that it's more likely that the difficult just increases by distance and time. The longer the distance (or riskier the area traveled through) the faster the increase.



Secondly, I suspect that only so much of the course can be pre-programmed and that some stuff (ships' exact position, heading and possibly mass, as well as just where in space the various stellar objects, such as planets, will be when the ship actually gets there) might have to be filled in at the last minute in order to make a safe jump. While an error of 400,000 km, when traveling millions of light years, might not mean much in a general sense, it could mean quite a bit if the destination planet has a moon in that location. So I suspect that astromechs with pre-programmed flight plans have do do a few last minute computations before the actual jumps.

Lastly, I think there is a good reason game-wise to require some last minute calculations-namely so that the PCs can just pop into hyperspace right away, and completely avoid any and all chases or battles in space.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Lastly, I think there is a good reason game-wise to require some last minute calculations-namely so that the PCs can just pop into hyperspace right away, and completely avoid any and all chases or battles in space.


They've still got to get away from the planet--that's time in space for the Imperials to attack.

And, you've got Interdictor Cruisers to deal with.

And...plotting jumps takes time, regardless of a needed roll or not. If the trip must be calculated, then using the Nav computer takes a few hours. Do the characters have a few hours?

Also, you could put a house rule on calculating coordinates and getting the Difficulty down. Standard Difficulty is 15, but let's say that the Astrogator wants to get that number down to a Difficulty of 2. Each -1 translates to an hour longer in hyperspace, but the rules don't address how long it takes to make that re-calculation from Difficulty 15 to Diff 14 to Diff 13 and so on.

You could easily rule that it takes a minute to make those adjustments. So, reducing Diff 15 to Diff 2 would take a few hours (for the original calculation) plus 13 minutes of adjustment on the part of the Navigator.

13 minutes, when you're in trouble, TIE fighters crawling down your back, is a long, long time--especially when the combat round is only 6 seconds long!

I say, if the PCs have time to pre-calculate, then let them do it and allow the jump to be a breeze. That's how must jumps should happen, anyway.

But, when the PCs get in a bind, as Han Solo did on Tatooine, and they have to get off the world fast, then they don't have a few hours to calculate hyperspace routes--not with stormtroopers pounding them on the ground and three Star Destroyers chasing them once they hit oribt.

There will still be dicey situations.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
But, when the PCs get in a bind, as Han Solo did on Tatooine, and they have to get off the world fast, then they don't have a few hours to calculate hyperspace routes--not with stormtroopers pounding them on the ground and three Star Destroyers chasing them once they hit oribt.

There will still be dicey situations.
If precalculation worked that well it would be standard operating procedure as one of the first things you do in a new system (even before you land at your current destination) is to have the ship's nav computer or an astromech droid precalculate three (or more) jumps out of the system you just arrived in. Let's call those three jumps A, B, and C. And if you can precaluate jumps out of a system before you are even in that system it would be SOP to precalculate more jumps once you had A, B, and C done. So you had jumps away from systems A, B, and C (call those 9 new jumps A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, and C3). So there is no reason for Han to be stuck calculating anything before escaping from Tatooine to some precalculated location unless he can't precalculate everything he needs to make the jump.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another wrinkle...

If, as per Rogue One, ships in the Classic Era can alter their course while in hyperspace, Han could've done a simplified version of Bren's scenario, with the destinations set as nearby route junctions or planets an hour or two away. Then, when escaping from Tatooine, he just picks the course that takes the Falcon in the general direction of Alderaan. Then once in hyperspace, he recalculates a course for Alderaan.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
If, as per Rogue One, ships in the Classic Era can alter their course while in hyperspace,....


We don't know that for sure. They could easily have jumped to a transit point to alter course.

I'm reading the first X-Wing novel, and transit points are discussed.

Plus, it has been alluded to in other SW works--meet-up points that are good for only a little while.

The Rogue One change could easily have been an exit out of hyperspace, re-calc for the new destination, followed by a new course jump.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
If precalculation worked that well it would be standard operating procedure as one of the first things you do in a new system (even before you land at your current destination) is to have the ship's nav computer or an astromech droid precalculate three (or more) jumps out of the system you just arrived in.


The WEG rules certainly allow for it. An astromech droid holds pre-calcuated jumps. If using a pre-calculated jump, that navcomp only needs about 1 minute to compute and engage the hyperdrive.

What's the difference in pre-calculating a jump as soon as you jump in-system and pre-calcuating a jump, then storing it in an R2 unit for use later?

There's no difference.

So, what you say could very well be the standard in the Star Wars universe.





Quote:
Let's call those three jumps A, B, and C. And if you can precaluate jumps out of a system before you are even in that system it would be SOP to precalculate more jumps once you had A, B, and C done. So you had jumps away from systems A, B, and C (call those 9 new jumps A1, A2, A3, B1, B2, B3, C1, C2, and C3). So there is no reason for Han to be stuck calculating anything before escaping from Tatooine to some precalculated location unless he can't precalculate everything he needs to make the jump.


Or...calculating jumps is not biggy, so why not just calculate when you know where you are going.

If he was on a smuggling run, then he might have some pre-calcuations ready to go. But, since he was on Tatooine, without a cargo or charter, he had no calculations ready. It would only take a minute to make the calculations normally, once he had a destination.

He wasn't expecting the Imperial trouble. This is supported by him saying, "These guys must be hotter than I thought." Even if he had pre-calculated the trip to Alderaan immediately after he left the cantina, it would still take the same amount of time to calculate the coordinates (1 min) or use the pre-calc he might have made (still takes 1 min).

If it takes the same time, what's the incentive to pre-calc?
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It may be that some of us are talking at cross purposes and seeming to disagree when we actually agree.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
atgxtg wrote:
Lastly, I think there is a good reason game-wise to require some last minute calculations-namely so that the PCs can just pop into hyperspace right away, and completely avoid any and all chases or battles in space.


They've still got to get away from the planet--that's time in space for the Imperials to attack.
Here you seemed to be suggesting (in contrast to atgxtg’s suggestion of requiring time to finish the jump calculation) that precalculating a jump would avoid the time needed to do last minute calculations. If you aren’t suggesting that precalculating avoids the risk of the bad guys (Imperials, pirates, and privateers shooting at you, tractoring your ship, or blocking your exit with a grav sphere you, or what have you) then the point is moot since you aren’t disagreeing with what atgxtg was suggesting.

Quote:
Or...calculating jumps is not biggy, so why not just calculate when you know where you are going.
Because people might be shooting at you? As I said previously if precalculating a jump avoids that possibility or significantly decreases the time then prudent people would make it SOP to have a precalculated jump. Especially since ordering the nav computer to precalculate a jump as soon as you enter a new system (if not before) is free so there is effectively zero opportunity cost to always precalculating jumps.

Personally I’m not fond of the notion of precalculating a jump to save the one minute calculation time or to avoid an astrogation roll. In addition, since virtually every object in the galaxy is in motion with respect to every other object, precalculating very far ahead in time makes little sense to me. Worse still from a play perspective, I think it undercuts potential drama and also decreases the value of having a good astrogation skill. Requiring last minute calculations even if someone has precalculated their jump means the PCs can’t avoid the risk of interception while spending 1 minute for final calculations. This in turn makes for more situations where dramatic and hasty astrogation rolls may be needed, which I see as a good thing.

According to the rules precalculated jumps allow one to make the astrogation calculation in one minute just like calculating a jump on a familiar and well traveled route. That is enough of a bonus to my mind. No more is needed. In addition it makes sense to me to decrease the utility of precalculation as time passes. I don’t have a hard numbers in mind, but calculating a day or two ahead of time would be useful. Calculating a month ahead of time would be of very limited value. Using year-old calculations is at best a waste of time.

Quote:
He wasn't expecting the Imperial trouble.
Han is a somewhat notorious smuggle who owes Jabba money and he’s on Jabba’s planet. He should be expecting some kind of trouble. If precalculating a jump is free and easy and it lets him get away from trouble faster it should be his SOP to have those calculations made for some destination before he leaves the Falcon and goes to the cantina. Or, Han being Han, he orders Chewie to perform the calculation while Han goes to the cantina.

Quote:
Even if he had pre-calculated the trip to Alderaan immediately after he left the cantina, it would still take the same amount of time to calculate the coordinates (1 min) or use the pre-calc he might have made (still takes 1 min).

If it takes the same time, what's the incentive to pre-calc?
I think that allowing a one minute time to calculate the final coordinates where the route is not well known and traveled is sufficient incentive.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I think that allowing a one minute time to calculate the final coordinates where the route is not well known and traveled is sufficient incentive.


Obviously, Han didn't agree with you, though.

And routes that are not well known take longer than a minute.



By RAW, there's nothing stopping players from pre-calculating coordinates. It takes a House Rule to make them calculate just before they jump.
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