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Are Stuns Cumulative?
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dph
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:29 am    Post subject: Are Stuns Cumulative? Reply with quote

Is the Die Penalty from multiple Stuns cumulative?
(I am not referring to the number of stuns you can receive before falling unconscious, only the die penalty for receiving a stun in the current and subsequent round)

We have always played it that multiple stuns are cumulative.
A Wookie with 5D strength who is stunned three times in the same round is at -3D (in addition to MAPs and other Wound penalties) for that and the following round.

This of course gets complicated when one receives stuns over multiple rounds and each one starts and finishes at different times.
Round One
The character is stunned. -1D (standard stun damage)
Round Two
The character is stunned again. -2D (from the cumulative current and last stun)
Round Three
The character is not hit again. -1D (The first Stun wears off but the second is still in effect.

However... I have been rereading the RAW (below) and no where does it say that Stuns are cumulative. That is, sustaining multiple stuns over the course of a number of rounds will change how long you are penalized but the penalty remains -1D. This might possibly be supported by the fact that in the case of 'Wounds', it specifically discusses wounded once and twice as being different states.

Have we been doing this wrong... for decades!
How do you all do this?
This is a game changer for my group, if we've been doing it wrong... It will make combat and keeping track of die penalties a lot easier!

RAW:
"Stunned characters suffer a penalty of -ID to skill and attribute rolls for the rest of the round and for the next round. A stun no longer penalizes a character after the second round..."
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a little more complicated than that. The penalty is -1D for having the wound status of "stunned."

No matter how many times you sustain a "stun," you are still just "stunned" (so, -1D for two rounds).

If you sustain an additional stun, then that penalty sticks around until after the second round following the most recent stun. In the example you give, the character would have a penalty of -1D for a total of three rounds (it would never reach -2D, by RAW).

However, the "stunned" condition lasts 1 minute. Stuns accumulated in that amount of time must be tracked because when a character has accumulated a number of stuns equal to the number of D he has in strength, he falls unconscious.

For what its worth, my group tracks wound status incorrectly as well, and we've been at it since 96. For us, "heroic" characters can get "wounded twice" and we count that as adding to the threshold for more serious wound levels (so, "killed" is achieved when the NPC rolls +24 over the soak roll, for example, rather than +16 over).
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As said, Stuns don't accumulate in penalties, just for the purposes of getting knocked out.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what's said on page 97
Quote:
Stunned characters suffer a penalty of -ID to skill
and attribute rolls for the rest of the round and for the
next round. A stun no longer penalizes a character
after the second round, but it is still "affecting" him for
half an hour unless the character rests for one minute.
If a character is being "affected" from a number of
stuns equal to the number before the "D" for the
character's Strength, the character is knocked unconscious
for 2D minutes. A character making an Easy first
aid total can revive an unconscious character.


It certainly CAN be read either way, that they ARE cumulative, or that they are NOT cumulative..
EVERY game i have been in though from home games, to store games to ones at cons, they HAVE been cumulative.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds funky:
A character who get's wounded or even wounded twice, is better off for the druation of that combat than one who does a much better job soaking the damage and gets stunned three times. (with a -3D penalty, you're that much more likely to fail a dodge or parry roll, and then keep taking damage, etc). It's counter intuitive, IMO, but... maybe that's how the Buckeyes like to do things....? Very Happy
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
It certainly CAN be read either way...
I disagree. If it was intended to be cumulative it would/should say Stunned characters suffer a penalty of -1D per stun accumulated. It doesn't say that, so they don't.

In addition, as others have observed, it doesn't make much sense for a few stuns to incur a worse penalty than Wounded x 2.
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dph
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this can be read either way- we certainly did (more than 20 players over 20 years including a few rules lawyers!)... which is why I'm asking the question, but... Reading it now, and listening to the community, I agree that it's not cumulative.

This kind of thing happens a lot with any game but it's fascinating when it's a core rule like this. We've played this way for 20 years... and interestingly, it's never been a problem. Yes it DOES mean 3 stuns is worse than 2 wounds (though not many people can sustain 3 stuns anyway) but they DO go away. For us it's like that moment in a movie where the character goes down to a big hit but gets up again moments later and fights on. As it effects NPCs as well as PCs it's always been balanced... but such a pain to keep track of!

HOWEVER... I think from my rereading it, and the community sentiment, that the penalty is not cumulative... and my players will be very excited!

Thanks all!
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dph
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
EVERY game i have been in though from home games, to store games to ones at cons, they HAVE been cumulative.


That's the only thing I've been worried about... I've NEVER seen it played any other way...
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griff
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say that the effect is cumulative in the sense that the multiple stuns happen in the round in which a penalty is in effect. Round one character is stunned. - 1D for that round and the next. Round two character is stunned again. - 2D for this round and - 1D for the next, since the effect from the first stun has faded. If stunned twice in the same round - 2D for that round and the next. If stunned again in the next round, - 3D this round and then - 1D for the next.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:17 am    Post subject: Re: Are Stuns Cumulative? Reply with quote

dph wrote:
Is the Die Penalty from multiple Stuns cumulative?
(I am not referring to the number of stuns you can receive before falling unconscious, only the die penalty for receiving a stun in the current and subsequent round)... I have been rereading the RAW (below) and no where does it say that Stuns are cumulative. That is, sustaining multiple stuns over the course of a number of rounds will change how long you are penalized but the penalty remains -1D. This might possibly be supported by the fact that in the case of 'Wounds', it specifically discusses wounded once and twice as being different states.

Have we been doing this wrong... for decades!
How do you all do this?
This is a game changer for my group, if we've been doing it wrong... It will make combat and keeping track of die penalties a lot easier!

RAW:
"Stunned characters suffer a penalty of -ID to skill and attribute rolls for the rest of the round and for the next round. A stun no longer penalizes a character after the second round..."
Naaman wrote:
The penalty is -1D for having the wound status of "stunned."

No matter how many times you sustain a "stun," you are still just "stunned" (so, -1D for two rounds).

If you sustain an additional stun, then that penalty sticks around until after the second round following the most recent stun. In the example you give, the character would have a penalty of -1D for a total of three rounds (it would never reach -2D, by RAW).
MrNexx wrote:
As said, Stuns don't accumulate in penalties, just for the purposes of getting knocked out.
Bren wrote:
If it was intended to be cumulative it would/should say Stunned characters suffer a penalty of -1D per stun accumulated. It doesn't say that, so they don't.

In addition, as others have observed, it doesn't make much sense for a few stuns to incur a worse penalty than Wounded x 2.

I concur.


griff wrote:
I would say that the effect is cumulative in the sense that the multiple stuns happen in the round in which a penalty is in effect. Round one character is stunned. - 1D for that round and the next. Round two character is stunned again. - 2D for this round and - 1D for the next, since the effect from the first stun has faded. If stunned twice in the same round - 2D for that round and the next. If stunned again in the next round, - 3D this round and then - 1D for the next.

A character can only become a "stunned character" as a result of the Character Damage Chart. If you are already a stunned character, receiving another "stunned character" result on top of that means you are still a stunned character according to the chart, and thus experience the "stunned character" penalty of -1D. Also, the rules give very specific penalty outcomes from the wound status accumulation, but these are completely absent for stuns. Stun penalties are not cumulative.

Additional "stunned character" results extend the end time of the stunned penalty. Stuns themselves only accumulate towards an unconsciousness.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
It certainly CAN be read either way...
I disagree. If it was intended to be cumulative it would/should say Stunned characters suffer a penalty of -1D per stun accumulated. It doesn't say that, so they don't.

In addition, as others have observed, it doesn't make much sense for a few stuns to incur a worse penalty than Wounded x 2.


How so? Being wounded CARRIES with you till healed. being stunned only stays with you for 2 rounds..

griff wrote:
I would say that the effect is cumulative in the sense that the multiple stuns happen in the round in which a penalty is in effect. Round one character is stunned. - 1D for that round and the next. Round two character is stunned again. - 2D for this round and - 1D for the next, since the effect from the first stun has faded. If stunned twice in the same round - 2D for that round and the next. If stunned again in the next round, - 3D this round and then - 1D for the next.


Exactly. And with many characters having between 2d+2 and 4d str normally (unless wookies or other big races), its relatively easy to see them racking up the stuns..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because the stun penalty carries through your next turn. If stuns were cumulative, it becomes, IMO, far too easy to "stun a character to death" with puny weapons.

From a game balance perspective, it makes no sense to me that achieving multiple stuns on a target should be a competitive alternative to actually wounding the target.

In all honesty, I feel that -1D is even to great a penalty, since a wounded character suffers the same penalty. I feel like the penalty should be -1 or -2, but that is a separate discussion.

In any case, I'd say throw the rules out if they dont work for you and play however you find it fun to.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
How so? Being wounded CARRIES with you till healed. being stunned only stays with you for 2 rounds..
I and others have explained how so, but to reiterate 2 rounds is when temporary stun wears off or is "healed." But the total number of temporary stuns does accumulate towards unconsciousness. Adding in an additional penalty is unnecessary, over the top, and not consistent with a sensible reading of the wording of the 2E and 2E R&E rules.

On the other hand, if you like playing that way knock yourselves out. After all a -2D, -3D, or -4D penalty is less severe than the 1E rules where any shot that hits a character (no matter their STR roll) causes the character to lose all actions for 1 round.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, this boils right back to how easy it is to STUN opponents out cause of how Weg ruled stun can be done at all ranges and just needs to beat the soak roll by 5 or more..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well, this boils right back to how easy it is to STUN opponents out cause of how Weg ruled stun can be done at all ranges and just needs to beat the soak roll by 5 or more..
Sounds like you are talking about how stun works in 2E+ when a weapon is set on stun. If so, no that's a different issue. After reviewing some of the different damage and stun rules I think I see where people became confused about cumulative stun penalties. These only exist in the Rules Companion that was published as a revision for 1E, but some people are continuing to use cumulative stuns after the rules for damage and stunning were changed in 2E.

1E rules
In the original 1E rules normal damage had the following effects.
DR < SR --> stunned (character falls prone and can't do anything for the rest of the combat round)
DR >= SR --> wounded (character falls prone and can't do anything for the rest of this round and has a -1D to skill and attribute rolls thereafter)
DR >= 2xSR --> incapacitated (character falls prone, is unconscious, and can do nothing until healed)
DR >= 3xSR --> mortal wound (prone and unconscious until healed, roll for death each round)

DR = Damage Roll | SR = Strength Roll

For blasters set on stun...
DR < SR --> no effect
DR >= SR --> stunned for 2 combat rounds (falls prone and can't do anything)
DR >= 2xSR --> falls prone and knocked unconscious

In the Rules Companion
In the Rules Companion, the rules for damage effect and the rules for weapons set on stun were changed. Normal damage now had no effect if the SR was greater than twice the damage. So the new damage effect table was:

2xDR < SR --> no effect
DR < SR --> stunned (character falls prone and can't do anything for the rest of the combat round)
DR >= SR --> wounded (character falls prone and can't do anything for the rest of this round and has a -1D to skill and attribute rolls thereafter)
DR >= 2xSR --> incapacitated (character falls prone, is unconscious, and can do nothing until healed)
DR >= 3xSR --> mortal wound (prone and unconscious until healed, roll for death each round)

For weapons set on stun
DR < SR --> No Effect
DR >= SR --> 1 Stun
DR >= 2xSR --> 2 Stun
DR >= 3xSR --> Unconscious

Quote:
All die codes (except Strength) are reduced by 1D for each stun result. For example, a "1 Stun" result reduces die codes by 1D, a "2 Stun" result reduces all die codes by 2D. Stun lasts for the rest of the round during which a character was stunned, and for the following round.

Stun damage is cumulative. Taking three "1 Stun" results in a round reduces all die codes by 3D. A character taking two "1 Stun" results in combat round two and a "2 Stun" result in combat round seven would lose 4D from all actions for the rest of round seven.

If the stuns taken in one round ever equals or exceeds a character's basic dice code of Dexterity (not including pips), then that character is immobile. Immobile characters are not unconscious, but they can take no Dexterity skill actions while immobile. If they have dice remaining in other attributes however, they can take those types of actions. For Example, a 3D Stun total received in one round would immobilize a Gambler because his Dexterity is 3D+2.

If the number of stuns ever equals or exceeds a character’s basic dice code of stamina then the character falls unconscious


2E rules
In the 2E rules damage had a completely new table that used the difference between DR and SR rather than multiples of SR or DR.

DR >= SR
0-3 Stunned
4-6 Wounded
9-12 Mortally Wounded
16+ Killed

And the definition of stunned was changed.
Quote:
Stunned characters suffer a penalty of -1D to skill and attribute rolls for the rest of the round and for the next round. A stun no longer penalizes a character after the second round, but it is still "affecting" him for half an hour, unless the character rests for one minute.

If a character is being "affected" from a number of stuns equal to the number before the "D" for the character's Strength, the character is knocked unconscious for 2D minutes.
Note that there is no discussion of accumulating stuns, nor of the number of stuns affecting a character being compared to Dexterity or to stamina. Instead Strength is now used instead of stamina to determine when the number of stuns causes unconciousness.

The effect of weapons set on stun was also changed. For weapons set on stun treat any damage results above Stunned as Unconscious for a number of rounds the equal to the number of Damage Points taken over their strength roll. A successful first aid roll can awaken a character early.
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