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Cardan-class Space Stations from Empire At War
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
You're quite right about the Rebellion not wanting to hold territory during its insurgency phase, but I had to make something up to justify (at least in my SWU) why the Rebellion would have these space stations when holding territory is the last thing a guerilla insurgency should do. And yes, this did indeed change after Endor when the Rebellion felt confident enough (and had taken sufficient territory from the Empire) that they could declare themselves as a newly legitimate government without being a laughingstock.

During the Rebellion period, I would say the Alliance's main use for these stations is going to be deep-space support facilities, with a two- or three- tiered mechanism for a docking approach. Something like:
    -A ship is given a set of coordinates in interplanetary space somewhere. That area of space is being monitored by a stealth scout who watches the new arrivals for a short while before breaking stealth to give the ship a new set of jump coordinates.

    -Alternately, multiple scouts, with only one breaking stealth, while the others stay hidden in case of an ambush...

    -Additionally, the new jump coordinates don't have to lead directly to the station. It could simply be another leg in the course, with more scouts waiting,

    -On top of that, the station could be relocated on a regular basis, using hyperspace tugs to tow it to a new random location somewhere within a few dozen lightyears.

Also, since you are using my scale system, these are the weapon systems I'm picturing for the various scales.
    Frigate-Scale
    -Turbolaser Cannon (in dual and quad-configuration) as the primary combat weapon.
    -Light Turbolaser Cannon - a relatively rare, light dual-purpose weapon that can be used against capital ships and starfighters (though not particularly effective against either
    -Ion Cannon - for disabling other Frigate-Scale ships
    -Heavy Turbolaser Cannon - found primarily on Heavy Cruisers, these are the SWU equivalent of the 8-10" guns on WWII era heavy cruisers, enough to damage heavier ships if used properly, but not up to a one-on-one duel.

    Destroyer-Scale
    -Heavy Turbolaser Batteries - The big battleship guns of the SWU, arranged in dual, quad or other configurations.
    -Heavy Ion Cannon - for disabling other Destroyer-Scale ships
    -Lots of Frigate-Scale weapons as backup for the main weapons, but organized in quad-batteries instead of individual cannon.

    Dreadnought-Scale
    -As Destroyer, but with a lot more weapons of all types.

    All Tractor Beam Projectors, meanwhile, would be of variable-beam type, allowing them to function in either Starfighter or Frigate Scale, with the heavier projectors on Destroyers and Dreadnoughts being able to operate in Destroyer-Scale, as well.
So, while a Frigate-Scale Heavy Cruiser would have something like:
    10 Heavy Turbolaser Cannon (Destroyer-Scale)
    20 Dual Turbolaser Cannon
    10 Ion Cannon
    10 Quad-Laser Cannon (Starship-Scale)
    10 Tractor Beam Projectors
a Destroyer-Scale Star Destroyer would have something like:
    20 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries
    10 Heavy Ion Cannon
    60 Turbolaser Batteries (Frigate-Scale)
    30 Ion Cannon (Frigate-Scale)
    30 Warhead Launchers (Frigate-Scale)
    40 Laser Batteries (Starship-Scale)
    10 Tractor Beam Projectors
and a Dreadnought-Scale Super Star Destroyer would have:
    -100 Heavy Turbolaser Batteries (Destroyer-Scale)
    -50 Heavy Ion Cannon (Destroyer-Scale)
    -300 Turbolaser Batteries (Frigate-Scale)
    -150 Ion Cannon (Frigate-Scale)
    -150 Warhead Launchers (Frigate-Scale)
    -200 Laser Batteries (Starship-Scale)
    -50 Tractor Beam Projectors

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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gawds, as if CRM's Scale system wasn't complicated enough...

I have no idea what scale to make my space station weapons, especially for the level 4 and 5 stations. Still, I did make the level 2 and above stations as dreadnought scale, so there is that....
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
Gawds, as if CRM's Scale system wasn't complicated enough...

I have no idea what scale to make my space station weapons, especially for the level 4 and 5 stations. Still, I did make the level 2 and above stations as dreadnought scale, so there is that....

I'd use size to determine that. So...

Cardan I - Length: 1,860 meters (height), Hull: 5D, Shields: 4D
Cardan II - Length: 4,220 meters, Hull: 6D+1, Shields: 4D+2
Cardan III - Length: 4,935 meters, Hull: 7D+2, Shields: 5D+1
Cardan IV - Length: 5,185 meters, Hull: 8D+1, Shields: 6D
Cardan V - Length: 5,590 meters, Hull: 9D, Shields: 6D+2

Cardan I is about the size of a Star Destroyer (1.6 KM length) so its Star Destroyer Scale. The Cardan II-V are quite a bit bigger (about 3x longer), but the question is--are they as big as say a Super Star Destroyer like Vader's Executor?

The Executor is 19,000 meters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Executor/Legends) so the Cardan II-V are 22% to 29% of that length. Looking at the hull and shield ratings for the various Cardan classes it seems that you are sufficiently accounting for increasing size and power by upping the hull, shields, and weapons. (The Cardan I is a bit of an outlier since it is less than half the length of the next size up, but at the higher ends of the scale you necessarily have a wide range of sizes.) If I were to use interim scales, I’d leave all the stations at Star Destroyer scale.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to CRM's scale system, anything longer than 3,500 qualifies as Dreadnought-scale. As such, all the Level 2 stations and above qualify.

Furthermore, there are exceptions where length alone doesn't determine scale. I asked CRM once about pre-fab garrisons and what scale they should be and he said that even though the garrison is only 200+ meters wide/long, it should be considered destroyer-scale and not frigate-scale because of its durability rather than its size.

Here's the link to the thread concerning CRM's Scale system if you'd like to see it: http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2952&start=0

EDIT: And truth be told, my Cardan/Alliance lengths are still guesswork at the moment; I haven't been able to use Empire at War in a way that I can accurately gauge the stations' lengths and widths yet. It's made more difficult by the fact that the Alliance stations expand their size through expanding its circumference with additional docking arms, while the Cardans expand lengthwise for 2 or 3 levels then start expanding crosswise and heightwise in level 4 and 5. And even the Level 1 stations are bigger than would appear at first glance since if you zoom in on them, they appear to be at least 3 times the size/volume of an Imperial Star Destroyer.
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Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.


Last edited by Sutehp on Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sutehp wrote:
According to CRM's scale system, anything longer than 3,500 qualifies as Dreadnought-scale. As such, all the Level 2 stations and above qualify.
Then if you use his scaling I'd scale back the hull and shield codes a bit for Cardan's II - V. Your fluff text says the Cardan I's are not very durable so it makes sense for them to be a lower scale.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Sutehp wrote:
According to CRM's scale system, anything longer than 3,500 qualifies as Dreadnought-scale. As such, all the Level 2 stations and above qualify.
Then if you use his scaling I'd scale back the hull and shield codes a bit for Cardan's II - V. Your fluff text says the Cardan I's are not very durable so it makes sense for them to be a lower scale.


Yeah, the problem is, I have no idea how far back to scale them; I have no basis for comparison for D6 hull and shield stats or for the original scale system or CRM's homeruled scale system. I'm barely familiar with the D6 system as it is.
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Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm always a bit reluctant to try to explain how other people's house rules work. My recollection from CRM's original thread was that his system essentially introduced extra steps in the 2ER&E system which uses bonus/penalty dice based on scale.

Quote:
Character 0D
Speeder 4D
Starfighter/Walker 8D*
Starship 12D
Capital Ship 16D
Death Star 24D


You just need a list of CRM's various scales and the dice associated with them. Then you calculate what hull and shield code would need to be for the Cardan II - IV so that when you add in the bonus die you get the total's you outlined. I don't have the numbers available and handy, but it's probably a difference of +2D or +3D for the increase from Star Destroyer to Dreadnaught scale. So just scale back your die codes by -2D or -3D respectively.

Keep in mind that these scaling rules are just a way of avoiding having to roll hull codes and weapon damages in the 20+ dice range when same (or similar) scale vessels are engaged.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found it.
CRMcNeill wrote:

Character 0D
Swoop +2D (+8 )
Speeder +4D (+16)
Starship +6D (+24)
Walker +8D (+32)
Frigate +10D (+40)
Destroyer +12D (+48 )
Dreadnought +16D (+64)
Death Star +24D (+96)

So the difference between Destroyer scale and Dreadnaught scale is +4D. Just scale down your hull and shield total by -4D.

Note: Applying the scale bonus/penalty to both hull and shields seems problematic to me since it effectively doubles the scale bonus for resisting damage which seems excessive and introduces an odd situation where dropping the shields effectively halves a big chunk of the defense.
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My working theory was that an immobile object that was also usable for combat (a garrison base or one of the Golan stations) could be heavily overbuilt, since it didn't need engines or maneuvering systems. All that unused energy could be directed toward more powerful shields and bracing fields, in addition to heavily compartmentalized interiors and reinforced structures.

When I did stats for the ships for Rebellion, I found a FAQ file with the various ships' Hull strength, shields, weapon ratings, etc, presented in numerical values. To generate their stats, I compared Rebellion ships with WEG stats to those without to generate ratios as a measurement of relative strength. I don't know if EaW has an equivalent resource.

Apart from that, a lot of gameplay will give you a feel for relative strengths and weaknesses.
_________________
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
My working theory was that an immobile object that was also usable for combat (a garrison base or one of the Golan stations) could be heavily overbuilt, since it didn't need engines or maneuvering systems. All that unused energy could be directed toward more powerful shields and bracing fields, in addition to heavily compartmentalized interiors and reinforced structures.

When I did stats for the ships for Rebellion, I found a FAQ file with the various ships' Hull strength, shields, weapon ratings, etc, presented in numerical values. To generate their stats, I compared Rebellion ships with WEG stats to those without to generate ratios as a measurement of relative strength. I don't know if EaW has an equivalent resource.


I'm trying to get in touch with anyone in the EaW modding community who can give me accurate measurements. The one guy I did manage to contact said that the ships and stations were on completely different scales (or somesuch, I didn't quite understand his broken English) so they couldn't effectively be compared.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Apart from that, a lot of gameplay will give you a feel for relative strengths and weaknesses.


So I'll have to play alot of Star Wars video games to get a feel for the units in those games? Curses! Foiled again! Wink Razz Cool Mr. Green
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Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a shame the Cardan's linear expansion design isn't a better fit for modular systems, like the the Taskforce Cruiser and the Strike Cruiser. The Alliance Station is a better fit, since it's organized around a central core.

What I'm picturing is a series of modules that can be added to the basic station stat as needed, depending on mission requirements. Need a deep space repair base? Add on repair bays, storage warehouses, etc. Need an orbital Army support station? Add on missile launcher modules, shuttle bays and medical facilities. The model number (I-V) could even be an indicator of how many modules the station can handle, with a Cardan I having only enough for 2-4 modules, while a V could handle 20 or more.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
It's a shame the Cardan's linear expansion design isn't a better fit for modular systems, like the the Taskforce Cruiser and the Strike Cruiser. The Alliance Station is a better fit, since it's organized around a central core.

What I'm picturing is a series of modules that can be added to the basic station stat as needed, depending on mission requirements. Need a deep space repair base? Add on repair bays, storage warehouses, etc. Need an orbital Army support station? Add on missile launcher modules, shuttle bays and medical facilities. The model number (I-V) could even be an indicator of how many modules the station can handle, with a Cardan I having only enough for 2-4 modules, while a V could handle 20 or more.


The impression I got from the game is that the level 1 stations are essentially "jacks-of-all-trades" and can perform all the above functions, but only on a relatively smaller scale. The L1 can do ship repair as well as ground support (in D6 theory, if not in EaW itself), but it can only repair ships as large as, say, corvettes, and provide ground support for a relatively smaller ground force. The only difference between the Levels is that they can better perform all those functions on progressively larger scales. So if the L1 is the "Jack of all trades," then the L2 would be the "duke (or maybe earl? Mr. Green ) of all trades," the L3 would be the "Queen of all trades," the L4 would be the "King of all trades," and the L5 would be the "Ace(!) of all trades."

On the subject of measuring size, it's easier to judge the relative length of the Cardans because they expand roughly horizontally, if not always in the same direction/axis. Alliances are much harder to gauge because they expand their circumferences haphazardly with those arms for two or three levels and then in addition, they expand by height (as well as still adding arms) at Level 4 and/or 5. So trying to measure their size by length alone becomes problematic.
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Just repurchased the X-Wing and Tie Fighter flight sim games. I forgot how much I missed them.
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