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Pilot
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
That is to say, the D6 system by nature oversimplifies certain dynamics. I know that there is a lot of virtual ink spilled in order to fix these problems. But I'm not convinced that they are problems per se.


Probably not. Star Wars is space opera based on Flash Gordon. Remember, Flash Gordon went from 1930's Earth to Ming controlled space, and he had no problem using ray guns, flying space ships, or riding strange beasts.
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Giant Tourtiere
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 3:08 am    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Giant Tourtiere wrote:


It's an interesting question, especially since 'maneuverable' doesn't necessarily mean 'easy to fly'. It's a far different context but apparently Sopwith Camels were crazy hard to learn to fly without dying, but once you did they were tremendous for dogfighting.

Especially if you were running a game with lots of piloting I think the idea of difficulties for different ships would be reasonable and add a lot of flavour. Not getting the Manuever dice would be a nice compromise between 'you can't fly it at all' and full operations, too.


I think this is one of those areas where the minutia of the realities of what the universe would be like (if we really can speak of realities in a universe where a little rubber puppet was moving a spaceship with his mind) doesn't line up well with a roleplaying system that favors the cinematic, fly by the seat of your pants pace that we see in the movies. It would be easy to build a system where you have to perform checks to see if you are even capable of making sense of the controls, and then acclimate to them to get the most out of the fighter's capability. But instead, the game designers skipped ahead of the compentence and learning curve of the "realities" to find a system where a quick and easy dogfighting mechanic can make sense.

That is to say, the D6 system by nature oversimplifies certain dynamics. I know that there is a lot of virtual ink spilled in order to fix these problems. But I'm not convinced that they are problems per se. No, it's not particularly realistic to expect that one newbie pilot can jump into the cockpit of a z-95 and another equally newbie pilot can jump into an A-Wing, and the A-Wing pilot will have an easier time flying. But I'll take that trade off for quick and easy play style the D6 system trades off for the lack of realism. Though, of course, your mileage may vary.


For most games I definitely agree. If you were going to run a campaign where starfighters were the primary focus then it might make sense to add a bit more depth to the piloting rules, but for most I wouldn't bother.

You're definitely correct that the d6 system lends itself to a theatrical playstyle (which then in turn fits with SW), which is also one of the things I like about it. One could, if one wanted, add realism to it, and some of the suggestions here are decent ideas along those lines.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 5:34 am    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
With Second Edition, should Starfighter Piloting and Space Transports be two different skills?


They already are..


Yes...but should they be?


If you know how to drive a car, does that mean you know also how to ride a motorcycle? Its the same thing.
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Scots Dragon
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
With Second Edition, should Starfighter Piloting and Space Transports be two different skills?


They already are..


Yes...but should they be?


If you know how to drive a car, does that mean you know also how to ride a motorcycle? Its the same thing.


Are they sufficiently different within the context of a swashbuckling space opera where heroes swing on ropes over pits and duel black knights with laser swords, though?
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As folks have said, it comes down to how hard you want to push it. Some species/cultures AREN'T good at flying/driving/what have you. Ewoks are the easy example.

I tend towards the reasoning that controls are relatively simple and close to standardized. Drop someone into a completely new ship and they might have to have a period of adjustment, but unless the ship says otherwise, that adjustment is rounds, not days. Otherwise, the difference in size is accounted for the difference in skills... starfighter v. space transports v. capital ships. Starfighter is anything about like a car... pick-up trucks, sub compacts, etc. Space Transports is your CDL... buses, 18-Wheelers, even bobtails. Capital ship is your tanks and large ships.... but one doesn't pilot a capital ship on their own. A few people who run at 2D Mechanical whose job it is to say "Yell for someone more qualified if this thing starts flashing" aren't likely to crash your Star Destroyer.
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
With Second Edition, should Starfighter Piloting and Space Transports be two different skills?


They already are..


Yes...but should they be?


As I'm sure other threads on the Pit have already also stated, I long ago folded space transports and starfighter piloting into the more general starship piloting. By and large, I use the streamlined skill list of 1E when I GM, though I do allow for specializations in what would be the more granular skills in 2E, eg: starship piloting: space transports, etc.

As others have said, it fits the space operatic style, where I could hop into X vehicle and go, swing across the chasm w/ princess in hand, and more recently in Rebels, (when the Spectres return to Lothal only to see Ezra's home ransacked) walk across a dang tightrope / cable across an alleyway, several stories above the ground without too much apparent effort or worry!
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 01, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

Scots Dragon wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
With Second Edition, should Starfighter Piloting and Space Transports be two different skills?


They already are..


Yes...but should they be?


If you know how to drive a car, does that mean you know also how to ride a motorcycle? Its the same thing.


Are they sufficiently different within the context of a swashbuckling space opera where heroes swing on ropes over pits and duel black knights with laser swords, though?


A swasbucking opera though wouldn't have motorcycles and cars.. It would have horses!
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

Scots Dragon wrote:
Are they sufficiently different within the context of a swashbuckling space opera where heroes swing on ropes over pits and duel black knights with laser swords, though?

This is a good point. People that try to make D6 more like real life are forgetting that this is space opera. The game system should simulate the cinematic reality of the Star Wars universe.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Where did he get these skills?


Starship Gunnery 6D - bulls-eying Womp Rats in Beggars Canyon. Because Luke is the star of the movie his skills automatically carry over from Vehicle Blasters to Starship Gunnery.

Starship Piloting 7D - threading the Needle in Beggar's Canyon. Because Luke is the star of the movie his skills automatically carry over from Repulsorlift Operations to Starship Piloting (or Starfighter Piloting if you are using the 2E rules).

Starship Shields 5D - hologames in the arcade at Anchorhead? Really I got nothin'.

Simulators sort of works, but I could also see an argument for the Empire not wanting to make military craft simulators available to prevent potential rebels from getting easy access to training without the required Imperial indoctrination they'd get in an academy.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
With Second Edition, should Starfighter Piloting and Space Transports be two different skills?


They already are..


Yes...but should they be?
Only if you want them to be. They aren't in first edition. They are afterwards.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose it basically comes down to what people want for their games. The justification of "space opera" wont fly with a gamer like CRM. For me, it primarily delends on how focused the campaign is on piloting.

One thing I will say: I LIKE when characters are different enough from each other that the "feel" different to play. I would probably settle on folding both skills into one, and then allowing for specialization in a type (figjter or transport, for example).

This would be in line with the "other" most valuable skill: blaster, where there arent separate skills for pistol, rifle, repeater, etc.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If you know how to drive a car, does that mean you know also how to ride a motorcycle? Its the same thing.
Am I the real me or am I the action movie melodrama version of me?

Giant Tourtiere wrote:
For most games I definitely agree. If you were going to run a campaign where starfighters were the primary focus then it might make sense to add a bit more depth to the piloting rules, but for most I wouldn't bother.
Greater detail for focused campaigns often makes sense. This would be similar to the way that the Spec Forces sourcebook added extra rules for martial arts and snipers.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
If you know how to drive a car, does that mean you know also how to ride a motorcycle? Its the same thing.
Am I the real me or am I the action movie melodrama version of me?


Well at least you are not the depressed teen vampire goth loving you..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
If you know how to drive a car, does that mean you know also how to ride a motorcycle? Its the same thing.
Am I the real me or am I the action movie melodrama version of me?


Well at least you are not the depressed teen vampire goth loving you..
Laughing That's never been me.

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...A good start.
That's me.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 10:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Pilot Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


If you know how to drive a car, does that mean you know also how to ride a motorcycle? Its the same thing.


I can see both sides of this, honestly.

Princess Leia can do all that, and the films make no attempt to establish any kind of a background for her to be able to.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only time we ever saw her drive anything though, Was the speeder bike in RotJ.. And by then she had a # of years in the rebellion... So it can be assumed she got some training on bikes.
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