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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:40 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | This presumes that Han has done nothing to improve his Astrogation skill level in the intervening 20-odd years between the end of ROTJ and TFA. |
Not necessarily. If doesn't improve his Astrogation at all, he can spend two CPs to make it a 10D throw. That's an 84% chance of rolling 30+.
Or, use a Force Point and throw 16D! It's very possible at 16D.
| Quote: | | And even disregarding all of that, Han is a film character, not a player character, and film characters don't necessarily abide by the same rules as regular PCs. |
They do in my games! 
| Quote: | | So, in conclusion, 1) Han Solo can pull this off if the situation is dire enough, and 2) your character isn't Han Solo. |
Well...let's say a PC has Astrogation 5D. That's doable, right?
You have a 10 Astrogation difficulty, then you slap a +30 penalty on that for the gravity well, making the difficulty 40.
The PC blows his Force Point, because of the dire situation of the City of Jedha blowing up and the debris killing him, and he's rolling 10D looking for 40+.
That's still a 20% chance.
What we saw in the movie was supposed to be a miracle jump to hyperspace just in the nick of time. A 20% chance would model that pretty well.
And, the game supports this with no modifications for the new films. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:50 am Post subject: |
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Also...just for kicks... 
K2 worked on the Astrogation coordinates a while before Cassian took over and made the jump early. Plus, K2 may have been working on the Astrogation coordinates from even before he picked up Cassian, Jyn, and the others just as Saw's temple was demolished.
A player could argue that the Preparing Rule, or the Combined Actions Rule was at work, giving Cassian another benefit on his Astrogation check.
One thing to contemplate, though. If the gravity wells aren't that big an issue and it is easy to do what Cassian or Han did, then what does that say about Interdictor Cruisers?
But, I get the sense from both scenes that what they pulled off, each of them, was a miracle jump.
As for communications while in hyperspace...
This might only be possible for military vessels using military equipment. Not possible for regular Joes. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: |
I'm very rusty on the D6 SW rules, and I could easily be missing something. But, I just scanned First Edition and the SW Sourcebook Hyperdrive entry, and I didn't see anything about gravity. Instead, it's all about time taken to make calculations.
I thought I remember a penalty for jumping to hyperspace in a gravity well so that only the most skilled (or those who blew a Force Point on it) could hope to achieve.
I didn't see that either.
Can you point me to where gravity is discussed? |
Yup. Page 57 in the 1e rulebook..
| Quote: | Background: Hyperspace The hyperdrive is a miracle of advanced technology. Powered by massive fusion generators, it hurls its ship into another dimension, called hyperspace. Only hyperspace techs and highly-trained engineers really understand hyperspace; even they admit there's a lot they don't know. Many aspects of hyperspace remain a mystery to imperial science. One thing is clear, though: in hyperspace a ship can travel faster than light.
To get technical, hyperspace is coterminous to normal space. That is, each point in real-space is associated with a unique point in hyperspace, and adjacent points in real-space are adjacent in hyperspace. If you head north in hyperspace, you travel north in real-space.
Real objects have a "Hyperspace shadow". That is, there is a star or star like object in hyperspace at the 'same location' it occupies in real space. THIS IS A DANGER.
Space is not a complete vacuum. Floating molecules are everywhere - only a few per cubic centimeter, but they exist. Larger objects though, rarer, are common too. There are many more 'rogue planets' - which float in the intersellar void, unwarmed by any sun - than in star systems. There are uncountable asteroids, meteors and random chunks of ice and rock between the stars.
If a ship is traveling at trans-light speed and it hits an object of any size, it is instantly vaporized. Even a close graze with a rogue planet or sizable asteroid would through a ship vastly off course. Astrogation is a tricky business. |
Though it doesn't specify specifically that you can't jump in a grav well, its implied by the danger factor.
Then you add in the 'hyperdrive mishap chart' which lists 'damaged, grazed grav well' and other such articles on it, showing the ship gets damaged/dinged up etc by merely brushing the grav well of something while in hyperspace, its IMO clear that you are (or should) not be jumping within a grav well...
| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | Also...just for kicks...
K2 worked on the Astrogation coordinates a while before Cassian took over and made the jump early. Plus, K2 may have been working on the Astrogation coordinates from even before he picked up Cassian, Jyn, and the others just as Saw's temple was demolished.
A player could argue that the Preparing Rule, or the Combined Actions Rule was at work, giving Cassian another benefit on his Astrogation check. |
I've always understood you could NOT pre-plan your astrogation jump point WHILE In the grav well of a planet. You need to wait till you get outside to do so..
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I've always understood you could NOT pre-plan your astrogation jump point WHILE In the grav well of a planet. You need to wait till you get outside to do so.. |
The problem there is, how do starfighters get their preprogrammed jumps if they have to wait until they are in orbit to program them?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Though it doesn't specify specifically that you can't jump in a grav well, its implied by the danger factor. |
I'd agree to that. And, it's basically what I said above. It's difficult, not impossible.
Or, impossible for some, and not impossible for those special heroes with the Force behind them.
| Quote: | | I've always understood you could NOT pre-plan your astrogation jump point WHILE In the grav well of a planet. You need to wait till you get outside to do so.. |
Hmm. Got a reference on that? I would think that there would be no problems pre-calculating. Star Destroyers are said (I think it's in the SW Sourcebook) to pre-program and hold thousands of possible destinations in their computer banks, and they're in and out of oribit and gravity wells all the time.
What about R2 units carrying pre-programmed coordinates? |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I've always understood you could NOT pre-plan your astrogation jump point WHILE In the grav well of a planet. You need to wait till you get outside to do so.. |
Although...to be fair to garhkal...
Page 58 of 1E SW says that the coordinates loaded into an R2 unit is done aboard a larger ship's navcomputer. Which implies that it is not done dirtside. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I've always understood you could NOT pre-plan your astrogation jump point WHILE In the grav well of a planet. You need to wait till you get outside to do so.. |
Although...to be fair to garhkal...
Page 58 of 1E SW says that the coordinates loaded into an R2 unit is done aboard a larger ship's navcomputer. Which implies that it is not done dirtside. |
Okay, but not all starfighters are going to launch from a larger ship. What about at Hoth? No capital ships there, so the calculation had to come from somewhere else.
My thinking is that ground-side installations can calculate hyperspace jumps if they use data downloaded from incoming starships to keep their charts accurate. I've proposed it before here. The pertinent section reads:Navigation Hub
A mobile version of the Navigation hubs found in major Imperial Navy orbital bases and installations, this module features a communications array and an advanced navigation super-computer. Naval vessels regularly upload their hyperspace navigation records to the navigation hub, which then analyzes the data, tracking radiation fluctuations and gravity levels over the course of the jump, then uses this data to generate highly accurate jump coordinates for the rest of the fleet. This is a continuing process, with jump information utilized to track patterns and trends over the course of months or years, and collated information being shared between hubs via the holo-net within the sector. While not as powerful as the Navigation facilities found at planetary and orbital installations, this module has the advantage of being able to travel with the fleet and provide it with dedicated navigation calculation services.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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Is there any specific direction in the rules where is says, "You cannot calculate hyperspace coordinates in a gravity well?"
Does this idea stem from the scene in ANH when Han does the coordinates? If so, it could very well be that Han was rushed getting off Tattooine with the troopers shooting at him. He flew to orbit, then saw the Star Destroyers (probably starting picking them up moments after lift off).
So, he didn't have time to do it earlier. Where as, on a normal trip, maybe he makes 'em on the pad before lift off? |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | Is there any specific direction in the rules where is says, "You cannot calculate hyperspace coordinates in a gravity well?" |
I'm not aware of any. IMO, "larger ship" was simply poor word choice on WEG's part.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Another thing to consider is the time it takes to calculate coordinates for hyperspace travel.
It only takes a minute to figure a jump route if your position is known and you are following a commonly-traveled route where the coordinates have already been calculated.
Solo could have pre-calculated the coordinates to Alderaan from Tatooine--he had all night--and what we saw in the movie was that last minute fine tuning (when the dice roll is made).
Now, here's the clincher. It takes a few hours to calculate jump coordinates if your position is known but you're traveling to a destination to which the ship has never gone before.
If this is indeed true--that Han never took the Falcon to Alderaan before his charter from Ben and Luke--then we have our answer. Because the only thing that makes sense is that Han set the NavComp up to calculate the Alderaan trip in the early morning, before everyone arrived at the ship. That several hours it took finished right when we saw the Falcon jump in ANH.
So, this supports the idea that calculations can be made in a gravity well (the position of the jump is considered off word, outside of orbit) as long as the jump is not initiated in the gravity well. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm not aware of any. IMO, "larger ship" was simply poor word choice on WEG's part. |
I tend to agree on this.
Yet another thing to consider, along with the time required to calculate jump coordinates (above) is that line about knowing your position.
That could mean that that you know what system you are in. Or...it could mean something a little tighter--you have to know the exact point in space from where you will enter hyperspace (and your final touches at the end of the coordinate procedure time, when you actually roll the Astrogation roll, includes you feeding your exact moment in time to the nav 'puter).
This would lead to "jump points" that you set up ahead of time. If the coordinates requires 4 hours because the ship has never been to its destination, then you set up the jump for a specific point in space outside of orbit from the planet.
When you get there, you adjust for timing, and, boom! You're gone.
Though, I don't know if the idea of specific "jump points" jive with what we know of Star Wars tech. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Unless "jump point" refers to a set of coordinates in real space pre-planned as the starting point for a hyperspace course.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Unless "jump point" refers to a set of coordinates in real space pre-planned as the starting point for a hyperspace course. |
This makes a bit of sense in-universe as the StarWars.com descriptions of the new planets in TFA and RO refer to following routes like the Hydian Way and the Corellian Trade Spine specifically to get from planet to planet.
Then again, as I explained in a different post, Rogue One implies that one can get directly from one side of the galaxy to the other in mere hours at most, which seems to make pre-planned hyperspace courses moot.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Then again, as I explained in a different post, Rogue One implies that one can get directly from one side of the galaxy to the other in mere hours at most, which seems to make pre-planned hyperspace courses moot. |
I disagree. I think it's possible to go from one side of the galaxy to the other in a few hours using one hyperspace route.
But then, if you're on a different edge of the galaxy, going the same distance to another world, it could take days or longer.
It just depends on the routes.
I don't see Rogue One changing that.
What I do see Rogue One doing is implementing the advice given in Chapter One of the Adventure Section of the First Edition Core Rulebook starting on page 86.
And, I see the advice given on page 60, Gamemastering Tips: Making the Rules Serve the Plot, being used. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | I've always understood you could NOT pre-plan your astrogation jump point WHILE In the grav well of a planet. You need to wait till you get outside to do so.. |
Although...to be fair to garhkal...
Page 58 of 1E SW says that the coordinates loaded into an R2 unit is done aboard a larger ship's navcomputer. Which implies that it is not done dirtside. |
That's what i was going off of.
| Quote: | | That could mean that that you know what system you are in. Or...it could mean something a little tighter--you have to know the exact point in space from where you will enter hyperspace (and your final touches at the end of the coordinate procedure time, when you actually roll the Astrogation roll, includes you feeding your exact moment in time to the nav 'puter). |
IIRC that is what i have always seen based on the "you can't pre-plot a course for hyperspace till you are in space" off of.. How do you know your entrance point till you are in space?
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