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Firearms and force users
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen Firearms used effectively against Jedi in the past. Specialized bullets, such as the explosive core or the cortosis core are fun, but the question then becomes whether or not the Jedi would sense the danger inherent in parrying such a bullet and simply dodge it rather than parrying it. And yes, I am aware that Lightsaber Combat does not include the ability to dodge attacks; that is, IMO, a failing of Lightsaber Combat to accurately represent the RAW. We see in at least one instance in TPM where Obi-Wan, in mid-lightsaber combat, ducks under a blaster shot fired by a battle droid without even looking in its direction.

I have some other thoughts, as well, but I have to pack and hit the road, and don't have time to write them all down. I'll get them in in a day or two.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If he also has danger sense up and active, sure, he could get a 'weird feeling about parrying THAT specific shot etc..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If he also has danger sense up and active, sure, he could get a 'weird feeling about parrying THAT specific shot etc..

Or one might realize that WEG's version of lightsaber combat is outdated and come up with something else.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
If he also has danger sense up and active, sure, he could get a 'weird feeling about parrying THAT specific shot etc..

Or one might realize that WEG's version of lightsaber combat is outdated and come up with something else.


So as i asked earlier, LS combat should be the and all and be all of defense?
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Error
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's easy to "fix" Lightsaber Combat. You just let them add their Sense dice to Dodge as well as Lightsaber. I would also let them split those dice between the two; e.g. if the Jedi has 6D Sense, he could add 4D to Lightsaber and 2D to Dodge, for example.

Done and done Smile
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So as i asked earlier, LS combat should be the and all and be all of defense?


No.

Lightsaber Combat focuses too much on the weapon instead of the Jedi holding it. IMO, what's needed is a more general power that allows the Jedi to use the Force to augment all forms of personal combat, but with reduced bonuses; say, a 1-to-3 ratio rather than LSC's 1-to-1. This would require the Jedi to practice with his weapon of choice to attain competency, which is then augmented by the guidance of the Force.

A Force user who wished to specialize in ranged weapons could then put their skill dice in Blaster and Dodge, then use the bonuses from the new Force Power to enhance those skills instead of Lightsaber.

In fact, I'd do away with the Lightsaber skill entirely and fold it into Melee Combat and Melee Parry. There is nothing so distinct about the manner in which a lightsaber is used (compared to, say, a sword) that necessitates a separate skill. A Jedi could then specialize in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber and achieve the same result (from a CP cost perspective) as paying full price for the Lightsaber skill.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
It's easy to "fix" Lightsaber Combat. You just let them add their Sense dice to Dodge as well as Lightsaber. I would also let them split those dice between the two; e.g. if the Jedi has 6D Sense, he could add 4D to Lightsaber and 2D to Dodge, for example.

Done and done Smile

My only problem here is that you don't want to spread a straight across Sense bonus too wide across multiple combat skills.

My fix would be to make the various Lightsaber Forms from the prequels into Advanced skills, in combination with what I suggested above for a more generalized "Combat Sense" power. A Martial Art as an Advanced Skill might have, for example, Melee Combat: Lightsaber, Melee Parry: Lightsaber, Brawling Combat, Brawling Parry and Dodge as prerequisites.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I'd love to see a Force user specializing in Firearms, doing the bullet curving trick from Wanted. Maybe a rule for partially negating Full Cover depending on the circumstances.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... and lots of meditation while hand-loading hot loads to put in your seven-shooter.

Last edited by Zarn on Mon May 13, 2019 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Error
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Error wrote:
It's easy to "fix" Lightsaber Combat. You just let them add their Sense dice to Dodge as well as Lightsaber. I would also let them split those dice between the two; e.g. if the Jedi has 6D Sense, he could add 4D to Lightsaber and 2D to Dodge, for example.

Done and done Smile

My only problem here is that you don't want to spread a straight across Sense bonus too wide across multiple combat skills.

That would be up to the PC who is activating LS combat, and natural selection (read: the passionless dice) will weed out the ones who make poor choices.

CRMcNeill wrote:

My fix would be to make the various Lightsaber Forms from the prequels into Advanced skills, in combination with what I suggested above for a more generalized "Combat Sense" power. A Martial Art as an Advanced Skill might have, for example, Melee Combat: Lightsaber, Melee Parry: Lightsaber, Brawling Combat, Brawling Parry and Dodge as prerequisites.

I am not a supporter of inserting SEVEN+ more packets of complex rules into the rules as they stand. I think you're the only person on this forum who would a) propose doing it, and b) actually have the patience to follow through. I do not bother with lightsaber forms in the least because the outcomes of battles do not change as the form changes, at least as the RAW is written. This is unless it's an aesthetic choice of the player. I know you're more detail-oriented though.

I am NOT opposed to a generalized "Force-guided Combat" power which has a Sense-derived dice pool that can be spread out/broken up over any number of combat-related skills at the beginning of a round. But I also believe this can be done without abolishing or denaturing Lightsaber Combat.
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Sutehp
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
... and lots of meditation while hand-loading hot loads to put in your seven-shooter.


This phrase sounds so sexually freighted it's not even funny.

But it was funny. Laughing Mr. Green 8)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
I am not a supporter of inserting SEVEN+ more packets of complex rules into the rules as they stand. I think you're the only person on this forum who would a) propose doing it, and b) actually have the patience to follow through. I do not bother with lightsaber forms in the least because the outcomes of battles do not change as the form changes, at least as the RAW is written. This is unless it's an aesthetic choice of the player. I know you're more detail-oriented though.

Way ahead of you. It needs some revision, since it's currently built around Lightsaber as a single skill instead of the split I proposed above, but the basics are there.

Quote:
I am NOT opposed to a generalized "Force-guided Combat" power which has a Sense-derived dice pool that can be spread out/broken up over any number of combat-related skills at the beginning of a round. But I also believe this can be done without abolishing or denaturing Lightsaber Combat.

To each, their own. I still maintain that WEG placed too much emphasis on the Lightsaber portion of Lightsaber Combat, when it should've focused on the Jedi holding it, and there are better ways to achieve the same effect.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
So as i asked earlier, LS combat should be the and all and be all of defense?


No.

Lightsaber Combat focuses too much on the weapon instead of the Jedi holding it. .


Some of us though, don't think LS combat shuld expand to cover all forms f defense though. Jedi NEED some sort of weak spot...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
So as i asked earlier, LS combat should be the and all and be all of defense?


No.

Lightsaber Combat focuses too much on the weapon instead of the Jedi holding it. .


Some of us though, don't think LS combat shuld expand to cover all forms f defense though. Jedi NEED some sort of weak spot...

And some of us are completely unsurprised that certain WEG reactionaries are resistant to any suggestion of change to the Holy Writ as It has been Revealed unto us.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the films and tv shows are any example, here's how to defeat a Jedi:
    1). Keep your distance (Jedi are most formidable in Melee range).
    2). Use weapons that can't be deflected back (Firearms, Flamethrowers, Grenades, etc.)
    3). Overwhelm their defenses with multiple attacks, or overwhelm them in general with MAPs.
    4). Just because some Jedi are capable of amazing feats does not mean that all of them are. Set the Difficulty on a power high enough, or cap any bonuses low enough, and all but the most powerful Jedi will fail.

Jedi should be limited in ways that conform to the how the Force is presented in the EU, not some arbitrary, outdated formula.
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