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Diplomacy and the RAW
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Error
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Diplomacy and the RAW Reply with quote

So I have been trying to figure out where a skill called "Diplomacy" belongs. I can't find it just as a skill on its own anywhere in the RAW, so what I have done is write it as Bargain: diplomacy.

Can anyone else share how they handle diplomacy in their games? I could easily see it just going under Perception as its own skill.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like Diplomacy is a mixture of Persuasion and Con.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It comes down to what you think the Diplomacy skill should do. I'd be inclined to make it part of Persuasion... while there are elements of Con or concealment, I think it's far more about getting people to your point of view... persuading them.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have made it a mix of con and persuasion..
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you look at the stats for Mon Mothma you will see that a "diplomat" such as she has most of her high DC's in Knowledge skills, with some in Perception skills, most notably Bargain, Command and Persuasion.

Mon Mothma
Type: Senator
DEXTERITY 3D
Blaster 3D+2, dodge 5D, melee parry 3D+1
KNOWLEDGE 4D
Alien species 8D+2, bureaucracy 10D+1, cultures 10D+1, intimi-
dation 5D, languages 8D, planetary systems 8D, survival 7D,
value 5D+2, willpower 6D+ 1
MECHANICAL 3D
Astrogation 5D, beast riding 3D+2, communications 3D+1,
repulsorlift operations 4D+1, space transports 4D, starfighter
piloting 4D
PERCEPTION 4D
Bargain 10D, command 10D, con 8D+1, gambling 6D, hide 6D+2,
persuasion 6D+ 1, persuasion: debate 8D+2, persuasion: oration
9D, search 7D, sneak 4D+2
STRENGTH 2D
Stamina 6D, swimming 4D+1
TECHNICAL 2D
Computer programming/repair 5D, droid programming 4D, droid
repair 4D, first aid 6D, security 5D, starfighter repair 2D+ 1
Force Points: 2
Character Points: 20
Move: 10

This pattern is repeated and the same skills are high(er) in her later conversions, notably from the Thrawn trilogy and the Jedi Academy trilogy. So it looks like Diplomacy is mostly a Perception skill to me, at least when it comes to game function, with a side of Knowledge by way of Bureaucracy and being cultured. Persuasion and Bargain species seem to be where the dice are at most.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say a big part of Diplomacy doesn't come from "Bureaucracy", but rather from "Cultures"... from knowing WHO people are, and what they want from you, socially.

Let's say Abraham and Betty are having a disagreement about Pizza toppings. They're both going to be rolling Persuasion to convince the other of their opinion. That's pretty straightforward. However, Betty botches her Cultures roll... she doesn't know that Abraham is Jewish, and so ANY suggestion of meat is going to be a non-starter... you can't combine meat and cheese, and you especially can't do it with pork. So, Abe's trying to bring her around to mushroom and black olive, and that's a moderate difficulty. But Betty, trying to get him to betray your sacred beliefs so she can have pork sausage and extra cheese? That's going to swing her difficulty a lot higher.

I don't think Diplomacy as a skill really has a place in D6, because it's covered. It might be a Bargain sometimes ("We'll withdraw from here if you give us these tax concessions"), it might be Persuasion ("It's in everyone's best interests for us to have this port"), it might be Con ("No, I don't know anything about Rebel spies found with Trandoshan technology.") and it might occasionally be intimidation ("Tell me where the Rebels are hiding or I will blow up Alderaan.") But it's not a discrete skill, but a combination of disciplines.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha your anecdote there is a pretty convincing argument for Cultures playing a role in diplomacy. I think I am still leaning toward Persuasion and Bargain if the diplomacy is in-game.

You know what I mean? Your example is an example of ex-game diplomacy, where there is a fleshed-out argument between a player and a GM.

But let's look at this example. Say Jill just wants to convince her friend who "has friends in a high places" to get her a government speeder. Do I require her to sit there and draw out a detailed argument why she deserves, needs, wants one, (and try to convince the GM?) No, she's not getting a speeder from the GM...she is getting a speeder from an in-game character. So basically:

Jill: I want my character to convince Lieutenant Brian to get me a speeder from Mon Mothma.
GM: How would you like to do it?
Jill: I would like to attempt to persuade him.
GM: Okay, roll your Persuasion.
etc.

PC vs. PC
or
PC vs. NPC

I usually just have them roll, rather than try to argue it with me. That's why I'm trying to figure out where a Diplomacy skill fits best, or if it's even needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In d20 the diplomacy skill covers what D6 calls persuasion and bargain as well as other notions such as seduction.

D&D also provides a bonus on diplomacy checks if the character has a certain amount of skill in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility amd royalty) and/or Sense Motive.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
Say Jill just wants to convince her friend who "has friends in a high places" to get her a government speeder. Do I require her to sit there and draw out a detailed argument why she deserves, needs, wants one, (and try to convince the GM?) No, she's not getting a speeder from the GM...she is getting a speeder from an in-game character. So basically:

Jill: I want my character to convince Lieutenant Brian to get me a speeder from Mon Mothma.
GM: How would you like to do it?
Jill: I would like to attempt to persuade him.
GM: Okay, roll your Persuasion.
etc.

PC vs. PC
or
PC vs. NPC

I usually just have them roll, rather than try to argue it with me. That's why I'm trying to figure out where a Diplomacy skill fits best, or if it's even needed.


I'd say that determining the skill determines the tack they're taking.

If she's Persuading him, she's not offering anything concrete... she wants him to give it to her. If she's Bargaining, she's got a cost she's going to have to pay. If she's Conning, then she's got a possibility of it blowing up in her face if she's found out.

Persuasion means that there's no cost to her, but it might be a harder roll. Bargain would be an easier roll, but there'd be a cost she has to pay. Con has the benefit of low cost and easier roll, but it makes the Wild Die more important... a mishap in Persuasion might mean she accidentally insults him... even if she succeeded, she's made an enemy. A mishap in Bargaining might drive the price to a place she doesn't want it... Jill might find herself Bargaining herself into a date with Brian, or unspecified favors with a Hutt. A mishap in Con means she gets found out about lying about things, which might have Brian going from "skeptical" to "need to defend the Rebellion from a possible spy."

In short, the general hierarchy should be:

Persuasion: High difficulty, low risk, no cost.
Bargain: Moderate Difficulty, low risk, Moderate Cost
Con: Moderate difficulty, moderate risk, no cost.
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Last edited by MrNexx on Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Makes a lot of sense, particularly since the Mon Mothma conversion has high DC's in half a dozen different things, and has a few dice in Con.

So then Diplomacy could conceivably be a Scholar skill, but that's not an actionable skill usually unless you are trying to solicit bonuses from the GM.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
Makes a lot of sense, particularly since the Mon Mothma conversion has high DC's in half a dozen different things, and has a few dice in Con.

So then Diplomacy could conceivably be a Scholar skill, but that's not an actionable skill usually unless you are trying to solicit bonuses from the GM.


Right, and I would say it is usually subsumed into Alien Species or Cultures.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
[ A mishap in Con means she gets found out about lying about things, which might have Brian going from "skeptical" to "need to defend the Rebellion from a possible spy."

Con: Moderate difficulty, moderate risk, no cost.


To me that indicates it has a cost! The potential to not only, not be believed, but the potential to be put on a blacklist!
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
[ A mishap in Con means she gets found out about lying about things, which might have Brian going from "skeptical" to "need to defend the Rebellion from a possible spy."

Con: Moderate difficulty, moderate risk, no cost.


To me that indicates it has a cost! The potential to not only, not be believed, but the potential to be put on a blacklist!


In the case of Con, the risk is the cost... if it works, you lose nothing. Bargain, you're always choosing to give something.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True dat.. DOSH usually!
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