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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 1:17 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Are you going to do the skiffs that accompanied Jabba's barge?? |
That's up for tomorrow. There'll be two versions, a ground skiff like the one in the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, and an Air Skiff (the ones from in ROTJ) which will have a similar altitude range as the Sail Barge.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:08 am Post subject: |
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In retrospect, I'm thinking it might be better to have either 50 Passengers or 2,000 metric tons of cargo on the sail barge. Looking at the interior layout from the Cross-Section books, there isn't a lot of room for one if you are full up on the other.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:23 am Post subject: |
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I'd say half split it.. 75 passengers.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I'd say half split it.. 75 passengers. |
I don't think that would cut it. If the Cross-Section book is accurate, a barge configured as a yacht just wouldn't have the room for any appreciable volume of cargo. At 30 meters long, it's roughly the same size range as a stock light freighter. With that as comparison, it would have to use practically its entire volume to haul cargo.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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I was saying shift it to just passengers, no cargo.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:26 am Post subject: |
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Since they are found in the Rebel Alliance and Imperial Sourcebooks, would anyone be interested in updated versions of the artillery weapons as well? Quite a few could be fixed simply by changing the scales, but I see some other possibilities, too...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my thoughts on the artillery listed in the Sourcebooks...
Light Anti-Vehicle Laser Cannon
Apart from the maximum range (10km), this thing is pretty useless. Low fire rate, and actually packs less of a punch under the 2R&E rules than a Blaster Rifle. Under my scale system, it comes off a little better, with the damage upped to 6D+2, so the simplest solution may be to leave this one as is, insofar as damage and fire control. The only other thing I might change would be swapping ranges with the DF.9 Anti-Infantry Battery; IMO, anti-vehicle cannon should outrange anti=personnel cannon
Comar Tri-Tracker
The main thing I'm considering changing is the Fire Rate. If there is one thing the history of warfare has shown, it is that the best way to shoot down aircraft with guns is to put a lot of rounds in the air in the hopes of one connecting. On top of that, giving this gun a 10 meter blast radius is superfluous, as there is no easy way to apply it to aerial combat. I'm considering dropping both the 1/3 RoF and the Blast Radius. With a FC of 4D and 5D Damage, it's still a pretty formidable anti-starfighter weapon.
Speizoc "Grandfather Gun"
Not much needs changing here. I'd probably put it in the Frigate Scale class...
Anti-Orbital Ion Cannon
The same, but Destroyer-Scale. The only thing I might do is convert the ranges into kilometers, with a maximum range of 300 kilometers, giving it twice the range of Capital-Scale Turbolasers.
Anti-Infantry Battery
Apart from swapping the ranges with the Light Anti-Vehicle Cannon, I'd remove the blast radius and give it 2D of Auto-Fire dice.
Field Missile Launcher
IMO, this thing should be Walker-Scale. Also, based on how I do coordination bonuses (+1D every time you double the number coordinating), I'm strongly considering adding an extra 4 missiles, for a total of 32. This would result in a +5D coordination bonus when firing a full salvo...
Heavy Anti-Vehicle Gun
Definitely needs to be Walker-Scale, plus it needs stats for the Aratech 440 Super-Heavy Armored Chassis that hauls it...
Turbolaser Battery
Needs to be Frigate or Destroyer Scale.
Heavy Tracker
While it isn't an artillery platform, I'm considering combining it with the M102 Fire Arc from the SpecForce Handbook. Both are equipped with the omniprobe sensors which allow them to scan around or behind hills or other intervening terrain, which would, IMO, be a better fit for an indirect fire weapon. A Heavy Tracker would be a good official platform for an artillery mission...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Does anyone else think the ranges for artillery in the SWU are a bit excessive?
The only place we see fixed emplacement artillery used is at Hoth, and if the WEG numbers are to be believed, the AT-ATs would've been in range of the Rebel artillery for several minutes (10km and 16km vs. the AT-AT's 3km maximum). Yet, in TESB, it is clear that the AT-ATs open fire first.
IMO, either the artillery's official ranges should be decreased to be more in keeping with similar weaponry in other stats, or the stats of vehicle weaponry should be increased to compensate.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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ForbinProject
Commander
Joined: 16 May 2016
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | Does anyone else think the ranges for artillery in the SWU are a bit excessive?
The only place we see fixed emplacement artillery used is at Hoth, and if the WEG numbers are to be believed, the AT-ATs would've been in range of the Rebel artillery for several minutes (10km and 16km vs. the AT-AT's 3km maximum). Yet, in TESB, it is clear that the AT-ATs open fire first.
IMO, either the artillery's official ranges should be decreased to be more in keeping with similar weaponry in other stats, or the stats of vehicle weaponry should be increased to compensate. |
Two things.
First. I always thought the Imps landed ground forces because they had to get under the shields to use their weapons effectively. So Arty from a distance would be negated by the shields.
Second. It was a movie. Arty battles at distance are boring as hell. Battles aren't exciting to watch until line of site is established. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2016 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think either of your points really addresses what I'm getting at.
If you look at the in-game stats for all of the artillery weapons I listed above, you'll see that all but one of them is a direct fire energy weapon, including the two seen on screen in TESB.
I am aware that this is a film, but if we are going to be gaming in a universe based on film evidence, I'm wondering what film evidence justifies the excessive ranges for the Rebel direct-fire weapons. There is no on-screen evidence of the Rebel cannon engaging the AT-ATs before they close the range, and with 13 and 7km range advantage respectively (combined with the AT-AT's maximum All-Out speed of 60km/h) means the Rebels would've had several minutes in which to engage the AT-ATs before the walkers would get close enough to shoot back. Instead, the AT-AT shoots first.
Which brings us back around to my original question. Arguing that the Rebels would hold their fire for cinematic purposes when fighting for their lives is... well, silly.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ForbinProject
Commander
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | I don't think either of your points really addresses what I'm getting at.
If you look at the in-game stats for all of the artillery weapons I listed above, you'll see that all but one of them is a direct fire energy weapon, including the two seen on screen in TESB.
I am aware that this is a film, but if we are going to be gaming in a universe based on film evidence, I'm wondering what film evidence justifies the excessive ranges for the Rebel direct-fire weapons. There is no on-screen evidence of the Rebel cannon engaging the AT-ATs before they close the range, and with 13 and 7km range advantage respectively (combined with the AT-AT's maximum All-Out speed of 60km/h) means the Rebels would've had several minutes in which to engage the AT-ATs before the walkers would get close enough to shoot back. Instead, the AT-AT shoots first.
Which brings us back around to my original question. Arguing that the Rebels would hold their fire for cinematic purposes when fighting for their lives is... well, silly. |
Well the Imp forces had to get under the Rebel planetary shield to take out the generator because they couldn't fire through so the Rebels had the same issue being unable to return fire through the shield to attack the Imp forces before they got into LOS.
In the briefing Leia gave the pilots she stated they had to momentarily drop the shields to let the transports escape, and when the shields were down for that brief time, that was the only times the anti orbital cannon fired. If that cannon had to wait until the shield dropped the smaller arty had no chance of firing thru the shields.
If the Rebels dropped the shields to engage the ground forces they'd have opened themselves up to orbital bombardment.
Also you don't fly aircraft into an arty barrage It's dangerous enough when the battle is LOS, it's suicide when arty is dropping from overhead and birds are dodging incoming ground fire as well.
Oh and IMHO (feel free to ignore it) 300km is way too short a maximum range for an Anti-Orbital Ion Cannon. That's only in the low orbit range, and Empire shows the the star destroyer was not in low orbit when it got hit. It was more like medium orbit, maybe high orbit. On an earth size planet medium to high orbit is between 2,000km and 35,786km. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ForbinProject wrote: | | Well the Imp forces had to get under the Rebel planetary shield to take out the generator because they couldn't fire through so the Rebels had the same issue being unable to return fire through the shield to attack the Imp forces before they got into LOS. |
I'm sensing something of a disconnect here. There is no film evidence that the energy shield was ever a factor in the ground attack, and under the WEG rules, planetary shields either protected an entire planet (which would've prevented ground troops from landing in the first place) or provide aerial coverage over a small portion of the planet, with a gap around the edges where ground troops can enter unimpeded. Gungan tactical shields and the like are an order of magnitude smaller, protecting 1-2 square kilometers as opposed to several hundred.
What the AT-ATs did was land outside the shield's perimeter and walk under the edges of its "umbrella" of coverage, without ever actually passing through it. As such, the shield provided no protection to the ground units of either side, as it was above them, protecting the Rebel base from orbital attack only.
So, again, we return to the massive range inequity of the Alliance's defensive artillery at Hoth compared to the AT-ATs. Even if the ranges were based on LOS (hitting something all the way out to the horizon), the Rebel weapons being much lower to the ground would have a horizon radius of around ~5 kilometers, while the much taller AT-AT would have a horizon closer to ~20 kilometers.
| Quote: | | Oh and IMHO (feel free to ignore it) 300km is way too short a maximum range for an Anti-Orbital Ion Cannon. That's only in the low orbit range, and Empire shows the the star destroyer was not in low orbit when it got hit. It was more like medium orbit, maybe high orbit. On an earth size planet medium to high orbit is between 2,000km and 35,786km. |
It's pretty much a given that WEG ranges are ridiculous and/or unrealistic. One can either a) try to adjust the ranges to reflect reality, while becoming increasingly frustrated due to the sheer number of factors involved or b) treat WEG's unrealistic ranges as relative values instead of hard numbers. For example, when you read "300 kilometers" for the range of the v-150, think "twice the range of a Capital Ship Scale turbolaser." Yes, 300 kilometers is a tiny number in a planetary orbit, but for the purposes of this game, it's ultimately simpler to just put quotes around it. We all know it's not really 300 kilometers, but its primary use is less of a measurement of actual distance than it is to serve as a relative measurement.
When in orbit in the SWU, when you read "kilometers", think of it as code for "Orbital Units."
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | ForbinProject wrote: | | Well the Imp forces had to get under the Rebel planetary shield to take out the generator because they couldn't fire through so the Rebels had the same issue being unable to return fire through the shield to attack the Imp forces before they got into LOS. |
I'm sensing something of a disconnect here. There is no film evidence that the energy shield was ever a factor in the ground attack, |
It's pretty much a given that WEG ranges are ridiculous and/or unrealistic. One can either a) try to adjust the ranges to reflect reality, while becoming increasingly frustrated due to the sheer number of factors involved of b) treat WEG's unrealistic ranges as relative values instead of hard numbers. For example, when you read "300 kilometers" for the range of the v-150, think "twice the range of a Capital Ship Scale turbolaser." Yes, 300 kilometers is a tiny number in a planetary orbit, but for the purposes of this game, it's ultimately simpler to just put quotes around it. We all know it's not really 300 kilometers, but its primary use is less of a measurement of actual distance than it is to serve as a relative measurement.
When in orbit in the SWU, when you read "kilometers", think of it as code for "Orbital Units."[/quote]
Check out the novelization of ESB.. IIRC there is several mentions of the walkers being landed beyond the shield's arc and coming in under it..
BUT another factor to consider.. The ranges subsume a GOOD day's visibility.. With Hoth having frequent snow storms, your line of sight might not be good enough to range them out past 1 km.. let alone to the 20k or so they were ranged for.
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ForbinProject
Commander
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm sensing something of a disconnect here. |
That is very possible. I may be interpreting what I saw in the movie and making conclusions based on my personal knowledge from when I was a member of gun crew (3"50.gun mount) in the Navy.
For arty to get distance the barrel is raised thus I'm thinking the rounds in the SWU on Hoth would follow an arcing path that would have to go thru the shield in order to reach their maximum range.
I'm also assuming that the shield radius is much shorter than the Rebel arty range. And that assumption may be wrong.
| Quote: | It's pretty much a given that WEG ranges are ridiculous and/or unrealistic. One can either a) try to adjust the ranges to reflect reality, while becoming increasingly frustrated due to the sheer number of factors involved of b) treat WEG's unrealistic ranges as relative values instead of hard numbers. For example, when you read "300 kilometers" for the range of the v-150, think "twice the range of a Capital Ship Scale turbolaser." Yes, 300 kilometers is a tiny number in a planetary orbit, but for the purposes of this game, it's ultimately simpler to just put quotes around it. We all know it's not really 300 kilometers, but its primary use is less of a measurement of actual distance than it is to serve as a relative measurement.
When in orbit in the SWU, when you read "kilometers", think of it as code for "Orbital Units." |
You're right, but it's nice to get something off your chest once in a while. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ForbinProject wrote: | | For arty to get distance the barrel is raised thus I'm thinking the rounds in the SWU on Hoth would follow an arcing path that would have to go thru the shield in order to reach their maximum range. |
Okay, that clears it up. In the Artillery chapter of the Imperial Sourcebook, all but one of the artillery weapons is a direct-fire energy weapon. This includes the Atgar P-Tower (the dish cannon on Hoth) and the DF.9 (the turret tower, also from Hoth). The only indirect fire weapons with official WEG stats are character-scale mortars, the Field Missile Launcher (from the ImpSB) and the M102 Fire Arc (from the SpecForce Handbook).
I plan on reducing the energy ranges for the direct-fire weapons to something along the lines of what we see on the vehicles, likely with a modest range bump to make up for their relative immobility. Projectile artillery, on the other hand, is still perfectly fine for a 20-30 kilometer range, IMO.
| Quote: | | You're right, but it's nice to get something off your chest once in a while. |
BT;DT
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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