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Artillery.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think part of the issue is, if you start getting into those longer ranges, its going to make it nigh impossible to COUNTER them unless you also have such artillery.. Heck as it is, unless you have somehow configured your sensors to where you get a few seconds early warning on incoming missiles/artillery shells etc, you won't get any real chance to defend against incoming rounds... which generally means no dodges..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I think part of the issue is, if you start getting into those longer ranges, its going to make it nigh impossible to COUNTER them unless you also have such artillery..

My point was more that all artillery in the SWU should have longer ranges, as would befit more advanced technology, not have essentially the same range. In fact, modern rocket artillery (such as the MLRS) actually outranges comparable systems in the SWU.

Quote:
Heck as it is, unless you have somehow configured your sensors to where you get a few seconds early warning on incoming missiles/artillery shells etc, you won't get any real chance to defend against incoming rounds... which generally means no dodges..

So? It's Star Wars. Give them sensors or let your PCs get slaughtered.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm reminded of the gungans vs droids sequence.

https://youtu.be/p6R9UkpyvSM?t=165

Gungans use ion spheres launched by atl atl (or the equivalent), have something that looks a lot like medieval siege weaponry and have both shield-shields (shields with shield technology) and shield wells (or whatever you might call it).

Personally, I'm imagining some sort of repulsorlift-assisted cluster ion sphere cannon shell. That'd be some hard rain that'd suck to be targeted by. If the artillery shell could have an airfoil for a body (something like NASA's M2-F1), it might even project over much longer distances.

And I'm a fan of the "competent Stormtroopers" conspiracy theory, so it might be fun to have the visual of a Stormtrooper battalion advancing under the cover of a rolling barrage.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been picturing something more conventional, but upgraded with Star Wars-tech. Modern tube artillery still uses the traditional bag of gun powder rammed into the breech behind the shell, but rail-gun-type artillery is in the works. For a high-tech environment, a mass driver utilizing repulsor-tech is not unreasonable. It's my opinion that the reason missiles and torpedoes are stored internally on starfighters and such is that the internal launcher serves as a first stage, providing additional thrust to the projectile, which thus increases its performance envelope.

A mass-driver howitzer (although I doubt a real-world term like "howitzer" would be in use in the SWU) would provide the initial kick to launch the shell, but the shells can also be equipped with their own booster engines, essentially a cannon fired torpedo or missile.

I'm considering making stats for proton torpedo-sized artillery rockets that can be fired either by ground units (firing them on ballistic paths once their drives burn out) or by starfighters equipped with proton torpedo tubes. That way, starfighters will have a greater variety of direct-fire munitions for attacking surface targets, and the tube artillery will be able to utilize the guided proton torpedos I wrote up for my ASC system. It would allow an artillery cannon to serve as both a bombard platform and SAM launcher...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
And I'm a fan of the "competent Stormtroopers" conspiracy theory, so it might be fun to have the visual of a Stormtrooper battalion advancing under the cover of a rolling barrage.

On that note, since Rules of Engagement includes rules for using heavy weapons for covering fire, how would you apply those rules to artillery? Obviously, any position under fire from big guns or rockets will be somewhat distracted from the task of shooting at an advancing enemy...
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Heck as it is, unless you have somehow configured your sensors to where you get a few seconds early warning on incoming missiles/artillery shells etc, you won't get any real chance to defend against incoming rounds... which generally means no dodges..

There are at least two examples from the EU of movement-based early warning systems: Cresh Luck Armor (GG10 pg. 87 & Gundark pg. 50) which costs 500 credits at 2 Availability, and the Motion Sensor Array (GG10 pg. 91, Gundark pg. 64) which costs 40 credits at 3 Availability. Both provide automatic warning of movement at very low cost.

With that in mind, I suggest a sensor system built into a trooper's blast helmet that uses passive sensors to scan the air space immediately above the trooper, warning of fast-moving incoming projectiles. You don't have to include a range or anything, and the only effect would be along the lines of:
    Game Use: Alerts characters to incoming artillery or missile fire, giving just enough warning time to permit a dive for the nearest available cover. Use standard reaction rules when Dodging artillery fire.

You could even say that the audible warning used to alert the characters to the incoming artillery is a descending note whistle-tone broadcast from a mini-speaker mounted in the helmet next to the character's ear, which sounds exactly like an incoming artillery round in the movies...

I use a similar explanation for why there appears to be sound in space in the SWU; an ears-up display, using surround sound speakers to provide directional cues as to where another ship or object is in relationship to the character's ship. Using tech to explain non-realistic sounds effects in-universe is always an easy way out.
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thedemonapostle
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is my experience that the creators of the D6 WEG RPG knew little to nothing about the specifics of many things used within its own system. Everything from weapon ranges, to blast radii, to air speeds, to 3D combat, and much more


For the discussion of artillery I can only go off of what I have read as my own military experience was limited to only being light infantry. It's been many years since I got out and lots of the specifics of what I was "educated" on has been forgotten. I can look up various things via Google-fu, but I believe that most here can do that on their own. I would ask that you get the ranges right. Please include the blast radius, as artillery isn't in the habit of just lobbing large metal balls at the opposition. Well, not intentionally. This brings up the topic of how you can hit your target dead on and still get a failure to detonate. In regards to sound: I'm reminded of what the mortarmen like to say, 'If you heard the first one, you won't hear the second.' And I recall mortars as being the angrier smaller siblings to artillery. Also, unless you're within the line of sight for artillery, you probably won't have much clue as to the location of the artillery. And you'll probably have to make the distinction between mortars, howitzers, guns, missile artillery, rocket artillery, self-propelled, stationary, towed, etc, etc, etc. And before I forget, the rate of fire might be important as well. From the Self-propelled artillery Wikipedia entry, 'A modern battery of six guns, each firing 43 kg projectiles with a burst firing speed of four rounds per minute, can deliver over a metric tonne of ordnance per minute for up to four minutes.'
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would be a good Scatter rule for artillery shells?

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the scatter distance should increase with range, and should also be increased or decreased by how well the gunnery crew rolled to hit. This would be critical to writing up stats for artillery shells with a working blast radius.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

On that note, since Rules of Engagement includes rules for using heavy weapons for covering fire, how would you apply those rules to artillery? Obviously, any position under fire from big guns or rockets will be somewhat distracted from the task of shooting at an advancing enemy...


Do you remember which page tht was on? I looked through Chap 2, 3 and 11 and saw nothing on it, nor did a search for 'covering fire, Cover fire, or heavy weapons for' pulled anything up.

CRMcNeill wrote:
There are at least two examples from the EU of movement-based early warning systems: Cresh Luck Armor (GG10 pg. 87 & Gundark pg. 50) which costs 500 credits at 2 Availability, and the Motion Sensor Array (GG10 pg. 91, Gundark pg. 64) which costs 40 credits at 3 Availability. Both provide automatic warning of movement at very low cost.


I looked them both up, and neither mention HOW they do it? Is it an always active sensor ping (which means the wearer won't be stealthy? is it passive, in which case the user is going to have to kick it on? How much power does it use?

CRMcNeill wrote:

What would be a good Scatter rule for artillery shells?

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking the scatter distance should increase with range, and should also be increased or decreased by how well the gunnery crew rolled to hit. This would be critical to writing up stats for artillery shells with a working blast radius


IIRC back on page 3 i put in my thoughts on that.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Do you remember which page tht was on? I looked through Chap 2, 3 and 11 and saw nothing on it, nor did a search for 'covering fire, Cover fire, or heavy weapons for' pulled anything up.

It's Chapter 6, page 58, as Optional Rule: Suppressing Fire.

Quote:
I looked them both up, and neither mention HOW they do it? Is it an always active sensor ping (which means the wearer won't be stealthy? is it passive, in which case the user is going to have to kick it on? How much power does it use?

I'm starting to get the feeling you aren't actually looking for a solution to the problem. Stop coming up with unnecessary objections; if it is important to the story for your PCs to be able to detect and Dodge incoming artillery, then hand-wave some tech that allows them to do so. How does it work? Star Wars, that's how! The tech does what it does because the plot needs it to, and if you have to invent some technobabble to cover it, then do it and stop poking holes in your own idea.

Quote:
IIRC back on page 3 i put in my thoughts on that.

You did; I just don't like using a hex based system, as not everyone will be using a hex map.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found this. It's for a different system, but includes a variety of modifiers and a D100 random results table...

EDIT: There are 35 possible results on the D100 table. Wouldn't be too hard to convert to a D6+D6 results table (Roll 1D, then roll D6 on the Subchart indicated by the 1st. Roll).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

I'm starting to get the feeling you aren't actually looking for a solution to the problem. Stop coming up with unnecessary objections; if it is important to the story for your PCs to be able to detect and Dodge incoming artillery, then hand-wave some tech that allows them to do so. How does it work? Star Wars, that's how! The tech does what it does because the plot needs it to, and if you have to invent some technobabble to cover it, then do it and stop poking holes in your own idea..


As i have mentioned before, i prefer concise info for how something is..
IE on those sensors.. Do the pcs need to roll their sensor skill to get anything, or is it a gimmie? if so and its always active how much power is it using (IE Consumable rating like some power suits get)? How easy is it to pick up the consistant sensor field?
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill, I wonder if it is necessary to implement anything in particular regarding an advancement under a rolling barrage. If I recall correctly, I think there's a mention that if you do an undeclared Dodge, you lose all actions remaining in your round. I can't remember which edition that rule was for, though.

Mechanically speaking, it would simply mean that if someone wants to suddenly get out of a barrage, the Stormies will get at least one round of "free fire" from the rolling barrage as their targets scatter under the unrelenting pummeling.

Personally, I think that's a good enough advantage that the Stormies might try something like that under certain circumstances. Though I would hate the wild die coming up double one.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
As i have mentioned before, i prefer concise info for how something is..
IE on those sensors.. Do the pcs need to roll their sensor skill to get anything, or is it a gimmie? if so and its always active how much power is it using (IE Consumable rating like some power suits get)? How easy is it to pick up the consistant sensor field?

Now you're prevaricating. You're asking questions that you already know have no official answers, and thus creating your own obstacles to prevent you from implementing a solution to a problem you invented and insist on perpetuating.

The goal here is the story. The technology is nothing more than a method of driving that story. If you want your characters to be able to dodge incoming artillery fire, yet still want realistic artillery fire that can not be heard prior to impact, then some form of extra-sensory warning is required. Thus, sensors. If it is important to the plot that those sensors be passive in nature, and thus not give off detectable emissions for the artillery to home in on, then they do. If it is important to the plot that the sensors function automatically, then they do. If it is important for the plot that those sensors not run out of power, even after prolonged use, then they do.

How do they do it? How do hyperdrives work? How do repulsorlifts work? How do lightsabers work? How does the Force work? Star Wars, that's how. If you must have an explanation, then make something up, but having an explanation for how something works is, at best, secondary to the effect it has on the story itself.

Do you want the added complication of having to consciously operate the sensors and worry about active emissions being detected and the logistics headache of tracking power usage, or do you want them simply running in the background as an excuse to allow your characters a chance to dodge something they don't know is coming?
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
CRMcNeill, I wonder if it is necessary to implement anything in particular regarding an advancement under a rolling barrage. If I recall correctly, I think there's a mention that if you do an undeclared Dodge, you lose all actions remaining in your round. I can't remember which edition that rule was for, though.

The RAW in the SpecForce Handbook was that, for every round fired, the difficulty to shoot for the troops under fire goes up by 1. For automatic weapons, it goes up by +5 for every burst fired. The idea is that troops who are taking mass incoming fire on their position are going to be at least somewhat distracted, and thus not quite as able to shoot accurately when returning fire. IMO, it's reasonable that artillery have the same effect.
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