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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Can you get us the passages that deal with this? |
Now that I'm home, I was able to look up the references.Heir To The Empire, page 111
"While they tested their new transmission system under combat conditions?" Han suggested darkly.
"We don't know that they've got a new system," Wedge cautioned him. "Coordinated simultaneous attacks have been done before."
"No." Han shook his head, looking around. "No, they've got something new. Some kind of booster that lets them punch subspace transmissions through deflector shields and battle debris."
"I don't think it's a booster," Leia said, a shiver running up her back. Something was starting to tingle, way back at the edge of her mind. "No one in any of the three systems picked up any transmissions." The Last Command, page 2
"Acknowledged, Chimaera," Captain Aban nodded, his proper military demeanor not quite masking his eagerness to take this war back to the Rebellion. "Good hunting."
The holo image sputtered and vanished as the Bellicose raised its deflector shields, cutting off long range communications.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
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Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Okay, that settles it: FTL comms through deflector shields are indeed not possible.
By the way that the characters are talking about it, coordination on simultaneous attacks in different systems - or vastly different parts of the same system - are not a regular thing. They also shouldn't have to be, especially if both sides to a conflict are subject to the same limitation. It matters if the outcome of one engagement needs to determine the behavior of units during another engagement.
There would be a role for communications ships, but I wouldn't overstate their utility. The periods during which ships need to have their deflector shields up are during combat or heightened combat readiness situations. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | It matters if the outcome of one engagement needs to determine the behavior of units during another engagement.
There would be a role for communications ships, but I wouldn't overstate their utility. |
Agreed. The one example that comes to mind is transmitting the hyperspace courses of fleeing ships to Interdiction units hundreds of lightyears away.
| Quote: | | The periods during which ships need to have their deflector shields up are during combat or heightened combat readiness situations. |
There is a rule that increases the chances of engine failure if the ship runs too long at All-Out. I have considered applying something similar to combat shields, in that you can't leave them up for too long before they start having failure issues.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2259
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | There is a rule that increases the chances of engine failure if the ship runs too long at All-Out. |
I haven't seen that. Is it in one of the supplements?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | There is a rule that increases the chances of engine failure if the ship runs too long at All-Out. |
I haven't seen that. Is it in one of the supplements? |
It's in the 2R&E rulebook in three variations, under Long Distance Movement (pg. 100 for characters, pg. 108 for vehicles, and pg. 125 for starships)
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
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Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | The one example that comes to mind is transmitting the hyperspace courses of fleeing ships to Interdiction units hundreds of lightyears away. |
Another would be to instruct ships in other combats to flee, so that they're not taking losses in a situation where the campaign is already lost.
In your case of communicating to interdictors, if the enemy is already fleeing, it seems like it would be safe(ish) to lower shields. But it would make it useful for the fleeing party to have someone cover the retreat - ie. give the victor a reason to not communicate to said interdictors.
| crmcneill wrote: | | There is a rule that increases the chances of engine failure if the ship runs too long at All-Out. I have considered applying something similar to combat shields, in that you can't leave them up for too long before they start having failure issues. |
Aha.
But this brings us to the question of shields. There are particle shields and energy shields. As I understand it (without going back to reference my books), particle shields are up constantly in order to ward off debris. Energy shields, on the other hand, are up for combat situations, and - according to the RAW (I know you disagree) - are not effective against ion cannons. Also, there are atmospheric shields over hangar bays.
So, I can fathom why energy shields, and not particle shields, would prevent FTL signals. But why would particle shields not suffer the same fatigue as energy shields? Isn't the inability to communicate by FTL enough of a reason for ships not to always have their energy shields up?
Back to the notion of comm ships, however. In addition to being able to relay FTL messages, there's also the network node role. Most ships of the line would probably not have enough channels to facilitate all the communication that might be necessary. A decidated communications ship would be able to facilitate more channels. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2014 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Another would be to instruct ships in other combats to flee, so that they're not taking losses in a situation where the campaign is already lost. |
The actual Bpfassh raid in Heir to the Empire showed Thrawn using Cbaoth to do something very similar, actually, relaying tactical orders to the other two task forces lightyears distant. The raid was also intended to test Cbaoth's abilities in that regard as well.
| Quote: | | In your case of communicating to interdictors, if the enemy is already fleeing, it seems like it would be safe(ish) to lower shields. But it would make it useful for the fleeing party to have someone cover the retreat - ie. give the victor a reason to not communicate to said interdictors. |
Good point. All told, my concept for how a comm-hub ship is moving further and further away from the original.
Another possible use would be to accompany fleet units going into uncharted areas, beyond communications range for the HoloNet. They could use high-powered transceivers to maintain communications links at much greater ranges than is normally possible. They could also serve as mobile broadcast stations, ala the subspace relay station you mentioned earlier.
| Quote: | | But this brings us to the question of shields. There are particle shields and energy shields. As I understand it (without going back to reference my books), particle shields are up constantly in order to ward off debris. Energy shields, on the other hand, are up for combat situations, and - according to the RAW (I know you disagree) - are not effective against ion cannons. Also, there are atmospheric shields over hangar bays. |
To simplify things for myself, I threw out WEG's shield concept in favor of just Navigation Shields and Combat Shields, with Combat Shields being effective against all forms of attack (although ion cannon have a disruptive effect on shields) and Navigation Shields simply adding to the Hull dice as described in the RAW, and serving as movie-magic explanation for how ships avoid impact damage in space. The launch bay shields I basically just treat as virtual walls to hold the air in, with no real effect apart from that.
As far as combat shields blocking comms, it would be simple enough to say that their blocking ability and high power output disrupts comm signals, and this disruption increases by orders of magnitude when the shields are attacked.
| Quote: | | In addition to being able to relay FTL messages, there's also the network node role. Most ships of the line would probably not have enough channels to facilitate all the communication that might be necessary. A decidated communications ship would be able to facilitate more channels. |
It's possible, but it's also noteworthy that most of the official communications ships mentioned in the EU were front-line warships that were also capable of expanded comm capacity. IMO, a Strike Cruiser modified as a comm platform would be a better fit for deployment with any of the combat lines.
One canon example of a capital ship configured as a comm platform is the Munificent-Class Star Frigate from ROTS. Of particular note is the following passage:"Munificent-class star frigates assisted the navigation and coordination of Confederacy fleets deep in enemy space. They also escorted and coordinated Separatist fleet actions such as attacks on the interstellar HoloNet relays to demoralize and isolate Galactic Republic forces. The Confederacy also took advantage of the star frigate's powerful antennae to broadcast anti-Republic propaganda while using its jamming devices to hinder enemy sensors, targeting systems and distress calls." The description also mentions that several Munificent-Class ships joined the Alliance, indicating that the Alliance would have comm-warfare ships too...
EDIT: Maybe a Comm Relay ship could be paired with a Combat Comm ship, in that the combat ship's shields are modified to allow at least short-ranged FTL transmissions through combat shields, but only so far as to reach the relay ship sitting a few lightyears outside the combat zone...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | There is a rule that increases the chances of engine failure if the ship runs too long at All-Out. |
I haven't seen that. Is it in one of the supplements? |
It's in the 2R&E rulebook in three variations, under Long Distance Movement (pg. 100 for characters, pg. 108 for vehicles, and pg. 125 for starships) |
Thanks, cr. I guess I have seen it, but didn't remember. Very good info to know (not that I've seen anyone ever go All-Out for very long).
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | One canon example of a capital ship configured as a comm platform is the Munificent-Class Star Frigate from ROTS. Of particular note is the following passage:"Munificent-class star frigates assisted the navigation and coordination of Confederacy fleets deep in enemy space. They also escorted and coordinated Separatist fleet actions such as attacks on the interstellar HoloNet relays to demoralize and isolate Galactic Republic forces. The Confederacy also took advantage of the star frigate's powerful antennae to broadcast anti-Republic propaganda while using its jamming devices to hinder enemy sensors, targeting systems and distress calls." The description also mentions that several Munificent-Class ships joined the Alliance, indicating that the Alliance would have comm-warfare ships too... |
Interesting that you pointed out that ship, as it's the one I chose to go with for my massive pirate vessel called the Rainmaker.
Being as it seems so excellently suited as a sort of communication ship, perhaps I will have it emitting a signal, to allow pirate ships in nearby sectors to meet up with it (as I mentioned earlier in this thread).
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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I just stumbled across this article that talks all about FTL travel and communications. Thought it was pretty appropos to this conversation.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | Being as it seems so excellently suited as a sort of communication ship, perhaps I will have it emitting a signal, to allow pirate ships in nearby sectors to meet up with it (as I mentioned earlier in this thread). |
I would advise against it. While the game rules for sensors don't really reflect this, in real life, electronic signals such as comms and active sensors can be detected at great range, and can act as a beacon, announcing your location to enemies.
However, the comm system on a Munificent would have other advantages; get a sufficiently skilled slicer or buy/steal the appropriate codes and you could use the holocomm transceivers to monitor communication traffic and gather intel...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | | Thanks, cr. I guess I have seen it, but didn't remember. Very good info to know (not that I've seen anyone ever go All-Out for very long). |
True. Before 2R&E changed the rules for All-out, I always figured it was like kicking in afterburners, or "Accelerate to Attack Speed", in that a pilot could still maneuver an fire his weapons while going this speed, but he couldn't stay at it for very long.
I like the idea that combat shields are something similar, in that they can protect the ship from damage, but you can't leave them up for long periods of time without running into issues with the shield projectors overheating or burning out.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Mikael Hasselstein
Line Captain
Joined: 20 Jul 2011
Posts: 809
Location: Sweden
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | All told, my concept for how a comm-hub ship is moving further and further away from the original. |
Indeed. This is yet another field in which it seems like we're trying to construct (imagine?) coherence out of an incoherent field.
At some point we should talk about putting our ruminations into some sort of deliverable - maybe a .pdf sourcebook of some sort with hyperlink citations to show that we're not just pulling this material out of our hindquarters.
Anyway, how are you conceiving of the comm ship now?
One thing to hang our hat on is the super communications ship, which has a slight appearance in RotJ, but has been fleshed out just a little.
I wonder if what we're really talking about is communications ships vs. HQ ships. I can certainly see utility for a separation of the two, but also an argument for the combination of them. I could see ISD2s being able to perform both roles, provided they have the comm capacity, given that they're more armor than shields.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Another possible use would be to accompany fleet units going into uncharted areas, beyond communications range for the HoloNet. They could use high-powered transceivers to maintain communications links at much greater ranges than is normally possible. They could also serve as mobile broadcast stations, ala the subspace relay station you mentioned earlier. |
Yes, that's a good concept.
I wonder how large and expensive they would have to be. The subspace relay station is pretty large.
| crmcneill wrote: | | To simplify things for myself, I threw out WEG's shield concept in favor of just Navigation Shields and Combat Shields, with Combat Shields being effective against all forms of attack (although ion cannon have a disruptive effect on shields) and Navigation Shields simply adding to the Hull dice as described in the RAW, and serving as movie-magic explanation for how ships avoid impact damage in space. The launch bay shields I basically just treat as virtual walls to hold the air in, with no real effect apart from that. |
Darn, you really are a mass proliferator of house rules, aren't you?
| crmcneill wrote: | | It's possible, but it's also noteworthy that most of the official communications ships mentioned in the EU were front-line warships that were also capable of expanded comm capacity. IMO, a Strike Cruiser modified as a comm platform would be a better fit for deployment with any of the combat lines. |
Right, so is it really necessary to have comm ships that hang about in radio range, but are vulnerable to flank attack - or would you just want to have heavily armored (rather than shielded) comm ships? It seems to me that comm arrays would still have to sit on the exterior somewhere where they would be vulnerable to attack, though their destruction would probably do little to the ship itself (aside from the eardrums of the comm officers). |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2014 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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CM does seem to have a lot of HRs..
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16176
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | CM does seem to have a lot of HRs.. |
You have no idea...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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