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Mikael Hasselstein
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 Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Perhaps transmission ranges could be linked to sensor stats, using sensor range numbers to generate comm ranges in lightyears for subspace and hypercomm systems. A Nebulon B's sensor ranges of 75 Scan and 150 Search would convert to a Subspace Comm range of 75 lightyears, with directional broadcasting increasing that range to 150 lightyears. |
I was thinking about that in my head, though I'm not sure it works. We know the comm ranges of X-wings (25LYs) and Star Destroyers (100LYs). We also know their scan ranges, 75 and 100 respectively. So, it works for the ISD, but the X-wing is 3x too long.
| crmcneill wrote: | | As far as patrol duties, do local patrols perform strictly law-enforcement missions, or do they also perform in-system search and rescue, much like the US Coast Guard? |
In my mind (which, as you know, is flexible) it depends on the bureaucracy. In terms of what we've been talking about - the Imperial Navy - I'd say that they don't really do Law Enforcement, unless they've been tasked to return law and order to a system because the existing local regime has been compromised. Otherwise, it's up to local authorities to work out.
That's why I also have a hard time thinking about the IPV-1 as being a regular part of the Imperial Navy. I see the Navy as SW equivalent of a "blue water navy", as opposed to "green-water navy" (Black space vs. Blue space, respectively?), by which I mean that it isn't bound to a specific system for lack of hyperdrives.
Beyond the Navy, there's Imperial Customs, which - I understand - is an agency outside of the military, even if it has military-like vessels, like our Coast Guard does (except that the Coast Guard is a part of the Dept. of Defense). I don't know. Maybe Imperial Customs is basically that part of the military that people tend to leave out when they're listing the parts of it. Kind of like we do when we say "Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines!.... oh, why does that building have five sides?"
| crmcneill wrote: | | I see IPV deployment being more uniform, with the importance of the world reflected more in the number of IPVs deployed than simply deploying IPVs to the more populated systems. Also, I've taken to calling System Patrol Ships "Cutters", which is line with the term used to describe coastal patrol ships used by the US Coast Guard. |
As usual, I overstated my case. By significant population, I mean enough of a population to warrant an Imperial government presence to run it. I imagine that there's plenty of systems out there that have small settlements that are too insignificant for the Empire to worry about. The Empire will still patrol those, on occasion, but they won't have a base there to house the IPVs. Instead, they send hyperspace capable ships there to patrol them on occasion, rather than continuously.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Don't forget that the ships pressed into patrol duty may not be ideal patrol vessels, as economic realities and the sheer vastness of known space has forced the Empire to use vessels that are, perhaps, due for retirement. |
Sure-sure. I'm taking it as given what I wrote several pages back - I'm assuming that we're talking about the standard imperial configuration, which gets deviated from the further from the bright parts of the galaxy you get.
In that respect, how much do Carrack's even still feature in core-sector sector groups anymore? |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | So, it works for the ISD, but the X-wing is 3x too long. |
So divide starfighter ranges by 3 to represent their lower power output levels.
| Quote: | | In my mind (which, as you know, is flexible) it depends on the bureaucracy. In terms of what we've been talking about - the Imperial Navy - I'd say that they don't really do Law Enforcement, unless they've been tasked to return law and order to a system because the existing local regime has been compromised. Otherwise, it's up to local authorities to work out. |
Well, here is what the ImpSB has to say.System patrol craft are any of a number of capital ship designs that fall between the 100 meter minimum and 250 meters, although some larger ships are relegated to this duty due to lack of available vessels. System patrol craft follow the primary directive to apprehend smuggling vessels, but they also serve as a star system's first line of defense against pirates, rebels, and hostile aliens as well.
Most of the vessels that fall into this class are . either designed or modified for speed and fire power. Built to engage in "pre-jump" combat, patrol craft make maximum use of speed and maneuverability to catch fleeing vessels before they can escape to hyperspace. System patrol craft typically contain no hyperdrive engines, instead relying on powerful sublight engines to make their way within a system.
Often, the crew of a system patrol craft spends long periods off-world in their vessel, patrolling the borders of their star system. They are called upon to respond quickly to any ships leaving the system with stolen or smuggled goods, so the crews must be constantly on watch for threats
from within their system as well as those from beyond.
Since the primary goal of smuggling is to avoid customs, systems patrol craft are, in essence, the Imperial Navy's Customs branch. However, it is also a tripwire force for many systems, in that it will be the only force present in the event of an unexpected strike by pirates, rebels or hostile aliens. Likely a patrol ship's tactics in this situation will be to make a fighting withdrawal while contacting local naval command for reinforcements.
I do think that SPV's would also engage in search and rescue as needed, even if it wasn't their primary mission.
There could also be room for a larger system patrol craft, in the frigate size range, but also not equipped with a hyperdrive. In Battlefleet Gothic, a ship option is a System Defense Monitor, which is slow and not jump capable, but well armed for its size. A mixed group of patrol cutters and defense monitors could be assigned to a more valuable system, with the monitors providing fire support (and possibly TIE support) for the cutters if they encounter anything that outmatches them.
| Quote: | | In that respect, how much do Carrack's even still feature in core-sector sector groups anymore? |
It may be old and have underpowered sensors, but it is still the fastest ship in the Imperial Fleet (a cap-ship that can keep pace with the Millennium Falcon in realspace is no laughing matter). Considering that the mission of Pursuit Lines is to maintain contact with a fleeing enemy, the Carrack is easily the most qualified ship for the job, as it has the speed to keep pace with pretty much any capital ship, as well as pretty strong hull and shield dice to soak a lot of damage for its size. Plus, once the laser cannon stats are adjusted to something more realistic, it can actually hold its own against a starfighter attack.
Ultimately, yes, it's old, but it's tough and it's fast, so until they invent something better, why replace it?
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | So, it works for the ISD, but the X-wing is 3x too long. |
So divide starfighter ranges by 3 to represent their lower power output levels. |
Okay, that's elegant. I'm on board.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | In my mind (which, as you know, is flexible) it depends on the bureaucracy. In terms of what we've been talking about - the Imperial Navy - I'd say that they don't really do Law Enforcement, unless they've been tasked to return law and order to a system because the existing local regime has been compromised. Otherwise, it's up to local authorities to work out. |
Since the primary goal of smuggling is to avoid customs, systems patrol craft are, in essence, the Imperial Navy's Customs branch. However, it is also a tripwire force for many systems, in that it will be the only force present in the event of an unexpected strike by pirates, rebels or hostile aliens. Likely a patrol ship's tactics in this situation will be to make a fighting withdrawal while contacting local naval command for reinforcements. |
Right, but is Customs a part of the Imperial Navy? Other ships (aside from the IPV) that fit the bill here are the following:
Rendili Light Corvette, (WEG)
Rendili Customs Frigate, (WEG)
Guardian-class light cruiser, (WEG)
It's my notion that all of these tend to operate under Imperial Customs. A question is if Imperial Customs is a part of the Imperial Navy or is a separate agency. An added question is to what degree they share data with the fleet.
The Wookiee page doesn't suggest that it's a part of the Navy, even if its stations and ships are serviced by the Navy. That said, we're dealing with Wookieepedia, and so I don't know how canon-correct that is, or even that the underlying material is canon-coherent. I think we might want to do a lit review on the sources that are cited to see if it doesn't become more clear by going to the original texts.
It strikes me that this is actually quite important. If Customs is a separate agency from the Navy, then the whole Navy role of patrol changes, IMV. Also, Customs becomes a very large entity.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I do think that SPV's would also engage in search and rescue as needed, even if it wasn't their primary mission. |
Agreed, though I could see some callous IPV captains not wanting to go out of their way at times.
| crmcneill wrote: | | It may be old and have underpowered sensors, but it is still the fastest ship in the Imperial Fleet (a cap-ship that can keep pace with the Millennium Falcon in realspace is no laughing matter). Considering that the mission of Pursuit Lines is to maintain contact with a fleeing enemy, the Carrack is easily the most qualified ship for the job, as it has the speed to keep pace with pretty much any capital ship, as well as pretty strong hull and shield dice to soak a lot of damage for its size. Plus, once the laser cannon stats are adjusted to something more realistic, it can actually hold its own against a starfighter attack. |
Good points.
I suppose we then come to the question of how many of these are still in production. If they're no longer being produced, then we should probably consider them to be increasingly rare. If so, would they be used for patrol activities, which have to be plentiful. My idea is that they would then exclusively be used in pursuit lines. |
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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | So divide starfighter ranges by 3 to represent their lower power output levels. |
Okay, that's elegant. I'm on board. |
As I mentioned in the other post, the scan range of the X-Wing is actually 50 (it is the Search that is 75), so it would be more appropriate to divide by 2 to get 25 lightyears.
Sidebar: These ships really butcher the nomenclature and terminology of ship classification. The only one that comes close is the Light Corvette; the Customs Frigate and the Light Cruiser are both starfighter scale, and should not be classified as frigates or cruisers.
| Quote: | | It's my notion that all of these tend to operate under Imperial Customs. A question is if Imperial Customs is a part of the Imperial Navy or is a separate agency. An added question is to what degree they share data with the fleet. |
I would almost be willing to suggest Customs as a separate unit under the Sector Fleet OB, like a Patrol Fleet that is responsible for deployment of these ships to the various systems of a sector. After all, system patrol ships don't really seem to fit anywhere in the OB; the closest is Skirmish Lines. When I made up my own version of the OB, I included a patrol fleet which included all of the System Patrol ships as well as the Sector Fleet's complement of orbital battle stations and defense monitors.
| Quote: | | I suppose we then come to the question of how many of these are still in production. If they're no longer being produced, then we should probably consider them to be increasingly rare. If so, would they be used for patrol activities, which have to be plentiful. My idea is that they would then exclusively be used in pursuit lines. |
I would agree, with the Recon-modified variants reserved exclusively for the Recon lines. However, there is no information available as to whether or not the ships have ceased production. As such, while I agree with limiting them specifically to Pursuit and Recon Lines, I don't think the Empire is facing a shortage of them.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Sidebar: These ships really butcher the nomenclature and terminology of ship classification. The only one that comes close is the Light Corvette; the Customs Frigate and the Light Cruiser are both starfighter scale, and should not be classified as frigates or cruisers. |
Yes, that was really dawning on me when I was linking these.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I would almost be willing to suggest Customs as a separate unit under the Sector Fleet OB, like a Patrol Fleet that is responsible for deployment of these ships to the various systems of a sector. After all, system patrol ships don't really seem to fit anywhere in the OB; the closest is Skirmish Lines. When I made up my own version of the OB, I included a patrol fleet which included all of the System Patrol ships as well as the Sector Fleet's complement of orbital battle stations and defense monitors. |
Yeah, I'm in favor of seeing Imperial Customs as the agency that really does most of the patrolling in the more civilized parts of the galaxy, and existing outside of the Navy OB. Then again, if the military's main mission is counterinsurgency, then Customs would actually be the front line.
The one thing that makes my brow furrow is that they're mentioned as having stormtroopers. I figured that the Stormtrooper Corps was for missions a bit more important than shaking down the odd smuggler.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | I suppose we then come to the question of how many of these are still in production. If they're no longer being produced, then we should probably consider them to be increasingly rare. If so, would they be used for patrol activities, which have to be plentiful. My idea is that they would then exclusively be used in pursuit lines. |
I would agree, with the Recon-modified variants reserved exclusively for the Recon lines. However, there is no information available as to whether or not the ships have ceased production. As such, while I agree with limiting them specifically to Pursuit and Recon Lines, I don't think the Empire is facing a shortage of them. |
Okay - so this question opens up a certain can of worms. Given that the Carrack is not obsolete, given it's unique utility as a fast pursuit vessel, why is it that they have not produced a better vessel for this role in the 20+ years since they started production of the Carrack? Everything else seems to have been updated.
It is said that the Carrack went out of style with the strategic realignment of the fleet towards the Star Destroyer. I kind of wish that the citations on the Carrack's Wookiee page was a bit more developed. There are whole paragraphs without specific citations. Is it the case that the strategic realignment really favored the Star Destroyer. Given that Star Destroyers are 1% of the fleet (according to the ImpSB)), I'm a bit skeptical. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | I'm in favor of seeing Imperial Customs as the agency that really does most of the patrolling in the more civilized parts of the galaxy, and existing outside of the Navy OB. Then again, if the military's main mission is counterinsurgency, then Customs would actually be the front line.
The one thing that makes my brow furrow is that they're mentioned as having stormtroopers. I figured that the Stormtrooper Corps was for missions a bit more important than shaking down the odd smuggler. |
That's part of why I see Customs as part of the Navy. Their description on Wookieepedia even mentions their involvement in search & rescue, as well as anti-smuggling and patrol ops.
| Quote: | Given that the Carrack is not obsolete, given it's unique utility as a fast pursuit vessel, why is it that they have not produced a better vessel for this role in the 20+ years since they started production of the Carrack? Everything else seems to have been updated.
It is said that the Carrack went out of style with the strategic realignment of the fleet towards the Star Destroyer. I kind of wish that the citations on the Carrack's Wookiee page was a bit more developed. There are whole paragraphs without specific citations. Is it the case that the strategic realignment really favored the Star Destroyer. Given that Star Destroyers are 1% of the fleet (according to the ImpSB)), I'm a bit skeptical. |
This, again, is part of the dangers of using a Wiki as a source.
A real-life example is the A-10 Thunderbolt. It may be old, but it is still the best platform around for what it actually does. Military command may have even tried to replace it in the past, only to have the planned replacement fall flat on its face. while the reliable old Carrack continues to soldier on.
If you are looking to replace it, wildfire posted a list of Immobilizer cruisers based on the Vindicator / Interdictor hull. I don't agree with all of his stat choices, but he suggests the possibility of an up-engined model capable of Space 8 while still being able to carry TIEs, which would be a significant improvement over the Carrack.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | That's part of why I see Customs as part of the Navy. Their description on Wookieepedia even mentions their involvement in search & rescue, as well as anti-smuggling and patrol ops.
...
This, again, is part of the dangers of using a Wiki as a source. |
Dammit - we should probably research what's been written about Imperial Customs and compare notes, to see if there are discrepancies between the sources and/or the Wookiee. (And then we fix the Wookiee.)
But...
But...
I don' wanna!
Sorry. It's late. I've been grading all day (when not posting here, because I just couldn't stand to look at another inane paper), and that's making me whiny.
| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | Given that the Carrack is not obsolete,... |
A real-life example is the A-10 Thunderbolt. It may be old, but it is still the best platform around for what it actually does. |
Okay, so it might still be in production. Fair enough. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | we should probably research what's been written about Imperial Customs and compare notes, to see if there are discrepancies between the sources and/or the Wookiee. (And then we fix the Wookiee.) |
Actually, I rather like the idea of Customs being part of the Navy but under a separate branch from Superiority, Assault and Bombard. It allows the Sector Group to maintain its numbers in deep-space combat ships and tailor the size of its customs and patrol force to match the specific needs of a sector without degrading overall naval strength.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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The approach I took was to fold Bombard and Assault in together, since their missions of planetary attack are closely linked, and replace Bombard with a Patrol / Customs Fleet at the Sector Group level.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | we should probably research what's been written about Imperial Customs and compare notes, to see if there are discrepancies between the sources and/or the Wookiee. (And then we fix the Wookiee.) |
Actually, I rather like the idea of Customs being part of the Navy but under a separate branch from Superiority, Assault and Bombard. It allows the Sector Group to maintain its numbers in deep-space combat ships and tailor the size of its customs and patrol force to match the specific needs of a sector without degrading overall naval strength. |
Yeah, we probably need to research this in some depth - see what the Wookiee cites, and hunt down those original sources, probably starting with the Platt's books. We should probably make a separate thread about Imperial Customs in which to catalog our research.
| crmcneill wrote: | | The approach I took was to fold Bombard and Assault in together, since their missions of planetary attack are closely linked, and replace Bombard with a Patrol / Customs Fleet at the Sector Group level. |
That seems perfectly logical, and if it were just me, then I'd happily throw the OB into the dustbin and go with your approach. However, I'm certainly still of the mindset to give the published word some respect in the fairly comprehensive construct that we're building of understanding how this all works.
I'm also fine with certain ways of going about things in giant bureaucracies like the Navy even where they don't make sense. That's the nature of bureaucracies, after all. Institutional inertia and political fiefdoms matter. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Yeah, we probably need to research this in some depth - see what the Wookiee cites, and hunt down those original sources, probably starting with the Platt's books. We should probably make a separate thread about Imperial Customs in which to catalog our research. |
I've got the Platt books, but the Starport Guide isn't going to be as relevant as the Smuggler's Guide. GG6 may provide some info as well. I've got some time available, so I'll do some reading tonight. However, I think starting a new topic may be premature, as we haven't yet reached the point in our research as to whether or not Customs and Patrol is outside the scope of this topic.
| crmcneill wrote: | TThat seems perfectly logical, and if it were just me, then I'd happily throw the OB into the dustbin and go with your approach. However, I'm certainly still of the mindset to give the published word some respect in the fairly comprehensive construct that we're building of understanding how this all works.
I'm also fine with certain ways of going about things in giant bureaucracies like the Navy even where they don't make sense. That's the nature of bureaucracies, after all. Institutional inertia and political fiefdoms matter. |
An alternate approach can be found in the sector fleet organizational chart. Per the chart, a standard sector group of 4 Superiority Fleets, 1 Support Fleet and 1 Deepdock Fleet can be reinforced by 2 Assault Fleets, a Bombard Fleet and an additional Superiority Fleet. Under the Army, those units would have to be assigned in a specific order, but under the Navy's mission detail oriented posture, reinforcing units could be deployed on a basis of need instead of procedure.
As such, a fifth Superiority Fleet could be assigned to a Sector Group that, while titularly is still a Superiority Fleet, all of its ship slots are filled with Patrol, Customs and System Defense Ships and Space Stations (perhaps with Golan Battle Stations taking the place of Star Destroyers and such).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Yeah, we probably need to research this in some depth - see what the Wookiee cites, and hunt down those original sources, probably starting with the Platt's books. We should probably make a separate thread about Imperial Customs in which to catalog our research. |
I've got the Platt books, but the Starport Guide isn't going to be as relevant as the Smuggler's Guide. GG6 may provide some info as well. I've got some time available, so I'll do some reading tonight. However, I think starting a new topic may be premature, as we haven't yet reached the point in our research as to whether or not Customs and Patrol is outside the scope of this topic.
An alternate approach can be found in the sector fleet organizational chart. |
Well, it seems our research question is about Customs' relationship with the Navy. You clearly like the notion that it fits within the Navy's OB. I'm not so sure. You've got two arguments on your side (plausibility within the OB and the stormtroopers), but I'm not there yet. It just seems like an unnatural relationship to me, given the way that I think about such bureaucracies.
Customs just seems too much like a law enforcement or revenue-raising activity to me to put into the hands of the military. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Customs just seems too much like a law enforcement or revenue-raising activity to me to put into the hands of the military. |
When you read "law enforcement" and "revenue-raising activity", think "control of all known space".
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | Customs just seems too much like a law enforcement or revenue-raising activity to me to put into the hands of the military. |
When you read "law enforcement" and "revenue-raising activity", think "control of all known space". |
Point 3. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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On that note, I'm off to read up on Customs Enforcement in the SWU. Let me know when you make it back to Portland; I'm through there a lot for work.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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