The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

precedent for curved blade lightsabers?
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech -> precedent for curved blade lightsabers? Goto page Previous  1, 2
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4834

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
All aesthetics aside, there is little reason for a curved lightsaber from a physics standpoint...
Curved blades in physical edged weapons served to focus pressure into as small an area as possible, thereby increasing sharpness, whereas a lightsaber operates on an entirely different principal for its cutting work.
of course if you want a curved blade for the sake of having the only lightsaber in the galaxy that actually looks like a saber, that's different!


Also, almost all of the curved blades were designed to be used on horseback. It provided for better control of the blade when slashing at higher velocity. The Jedi should have little to no resistance against a lighstaber anyway, regardless of their velocity. But, if you've got Jedi on horseback in your game, you've already got bigger problems.
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
vanir
Jedi


Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was easier to draw a curved blade from horseback. They're actually very unwieldy to use, centre of mass winds up being in the air behind your wrist and it very much strains it. Straight blades are much easier to use.

Early katana ancestors were straight bladed (8-12th century), early on the classical katanas of the 14-16th century (japanese call them something else, forgot name) were very curved and quite long, for use on horseback. A backup weapon (beginning the daisho tradition) was carried for use on foot.
You're about as likely to cut yourself as an enemy, I've used a few and they're real awkward and very hard to get a good hit out of on foot and extremely heavy on your wrists (there are specific training rituals to help strengthen them, but it doesn't change the fact), you'd want to be slashing from horseback at speed and use the vehicle momentum for effect.
On the plus side just a lateral hack without much skill still causes the blade to slide along the target because of the curvature, thereby slicing rather than chopping, so doing more lethal damage.
If on horseback, they're stupid-proof. If on foot you toss it and draw something else, a handful of rocks is probably better.

The traditional katanas we're all familiar with (16-19th century) are later period weapons designed for use on foot. The daisho was worn only as a traditional symbol of authority at this stage.
Their curvature is fairly slight and solely so that you can have a longer offensive reach but still draw the weapon comfortably. Reach can mean a lot in melee combat. They're still unwieldy and hard on your wrist because of the curve, but not nearly as bad as the precursor type.
There is a particular cutting technique used for these and straight bladed swords by samurai (many samurai preferred a shorter straight bladed sword popularised in media as the ninjato but this refers in fact to another weapon, they are still called katana).
In order to get the slice effect rather than messy hacking, you make contact with the tip of the blade and then use body mechanics to slide the weapon through the cut with increasing force. Hence almost all kendo attacks represent lunging blows (but are philosophical forms, samurai didn't actually fight like you do in kendo, they used budoka and there's maybe 3 schools of it still around since the middle ages, only found regionally in japan and kind of exclusive with membership).

You can still get traditionally forged katana type swords custom made for you today, there's two notable weaponsmiths in Japan from memory, it costs up to around ten grand. The sword is made for you by your arm length and degree of curvature, those two things decide how long it can be and still drawn on foot. One for horseback can be more curved because you don't use it on foot, so it can be roughly six inches longer than someone your height could normally wield.

That's why the curved blades.
You can also see the same lines with European blades. Ones designed for use from horseback are more curved. In this case it was just easier to draw them over a mount.
But they are much, much harder to control on foot, when you're the one providing impetus and direction, mostly on your wrists.

You can tell at a glance when looking at katanas what their style and intended purpose is. If very curved it's in the 14th century horseback style, if only gently curved it is 16th century foot style, a straight bladed one could be from either period and you'll have to look at its construction and markings (will be etched on the tang).
Very well made swords were kept for generations however, periodically re-handled to suit period fashion or utility.

It should be noted that damascus sabres made in Turkey and the Middle East are considered equivalent in quality to late period katanas by archaeological metallurgists. These style of blade is designed to be used from horseback or foot, primarily horseback and is swung in a whipping motion (not like the fencing you see on the movies at all, but sort of like the twirling whipping action you see in black and white epic films, especially Russian ones).

Broadswords of the mediaeval period are designed to be wielded like an oversized axe. You hack and spears were universally regarded as more effective in combat (the reach thing and the fact a sword is actually an extremely unwieldy type of weapon with very very limited use, traditionally they were only ever sidearms, like a pistol where a spear is a rifle).

Musashi infamously used a wooden bokken in unarmoured combat mostly, he was much more effective with that than a gigantic hunk of metal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vanir
Jedi


Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Put simply the SW equivalent of the curved blade sabre is the adjustable length lightsabre. It accomplishes the same purpose technologically: offensive reach.
Curved blades were actually a compromise on handling to achieve reach, but they meant you had to be burly even with a long handle and two hand use. I can't overstate how bad they are on your wrist, mine still hurt just thinking about it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tell that to the Ghurkas!
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drop Bear
Ensign
Ensign


Joined: 23 May 2011
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first Japanese Swords had strait blades and where called Ken (Lit. Blade), the direct ancestor to the Katana was the Tachi, it was a curved Calvary Sword and continued in use and development through much of the life of the Classical Katana (the Katana was developed to be a footman's Tachi originally), in later centuries a Katana that could be used both mounted and on foot was developed but the Tachi stayed that little bit better for use by mounted troops so remained in use if only in small numbers by dedicated Calvary troops.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Drop Bear
Ensign
Ensign


Joined: 23 May 2011
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Tell that to the Ghurkas!


Garhkal, we all know Ghurkers are what Chuck Norris wants to be when he grows up, and the rules of Anatomy don't apply to the little buggers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vanir
Jedi


Joined: 11 May 2011
Posts: 793

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drop Bear wrote:
The first Japanese Swords had strait blades and where called Ken (Lit. Blade), the direct ancestor to the Katana was the Tachi, it was a curved Calvary Sword and continued in use and development through much of the life of the Classical Katana (the Katana was developed to be a footman's Tachi originally), in later centuries a Katana that could be used both mounted and on foot was developed but the Tachi stayed that little bit better for use by mounted troops so remained in use if only in small numbers by dedicated Calvary troops.


I was with several schools including a regional kobudo tradition (takamatsu ryuha) dating back several centuries for many years, and thought I pretty much got a handle on it all thusly:

tachi simply refers to the style in which the weapon is carried and mounted (attached to the saddle), although admitedly this does generally mean the more curved and longer, mounted nihonto (that was the word I was looking for), the character tachi itself translates literally to "generic curved-type blade" but was used to differentiate between the chinese-derived chokuto.
Proper transliteration of tachi means "saddle mounted style" despite the literal translation. For prosperity the katana character just means "sword" if literally translated, derived from japanese revision of a chinese character. And nihonto directly translates to "japanese sword" but proper transliteration is the blade (rather than its mounting) that you referred to as tachi.

for example, if you take a 14th century "tachi" and remount it to be carried in the sash instead of from the saddle, it is then a handachi even though only the handle and scabbard is changed.
Quite often the blade was chopped and shortened when this was done however, because an iato style combat draw cannot be done with the longer weapon.
So handachi in practise often means a cut down nihonto using either the tachi or katana style mountings (ie. saddle or sash mount), but weaponsmiths will slap you for this, handachi are nihonto of any length with a sash mounting rather than a tachi mounting.

The proper term for that actual blade, it's sharp curvature and gross length is nihonto. Katana are shorter (length is specified by user arm length during forging, tachi mounts don't have to worry about that and longer is better, ergo nihonto are almost always longer...but keep in mind not everybody has the same length of arm, and not every horserider likes a really long sword, so it really varies on both counts historically) and of course have less curvature and are worn through the sash. Iato draws are easy with these, impossible with the other, I've tried.
handachi maybe either length (depending whether someone cut it down when remounting), you pick these by a katana mount, but an overly curved blade. A fairly short one, with a lot of curvature was undoubtedly cut down since its manufacture, it's a stand out point and also means the particular sword is probably very old and valuable.

You are correct that all the styles, including shorter straight blades in regular katana style and mounting, the gently curved medium length blade and the longer strongly curved blades were made throughout the bulk of Japanese swordsmithing period from the 12th to 19th century.
Later katanas were often made quite long, this was more fashion than utilitarian, you can't iato with them and you can't mount them to a saddle. At this stage carrying swords had become illegal in Japan anyway, they never left people's houses.
So overall it is a definitely important point that japanese swords are largely a case by case basis. We're just talking generic generalisations here, typically used by swordsmiths in discussing making one for you.

The degree of curvature also does tend to vary in both katana and nihonto, many were made by user specification, the traditional method is by arm length and user comfort. These very well made custom examples are referred to as meitou, handed from generation to generation, they are remounted in various styles (tachi, katana), or cut down over their life as traditional swordplay moved from horseback to foot.

Just to confuse things further, the daisho are a traditional representation of the fact you had to carry a sidearm to use on foot if using a nihonto as a main weapon (leaving the big sword on the saddle when you dismount and drawing a shorter weapon). As a sign of authority the daisho were carried over into the age of the katana despite this weapon being meant for foot use.
And here's the kicker, the katana is called an otachi (big tachi) when carried like this. But as I said this term simply refers to the fact you used to have to carry two swords. Hence it is just a sign of authority (meaning you come from a samurai family), even though you no longer have to carry two swords. So it is called otachi (big tachi) even though they're almost always shorter than a tachi mounting which will invariably be earlier period nihonto blades.
Daisho may use handachi or katana, the wakizashi is purely ceremonial.
Nihonto (with a tachi mount) are left on the saddle or carried in the hand. A straight bladed katana resembling a wakizashi was often carried as well and preferred for dismounted use.

So...tachi = saddle mounting, describes the style of mounting itself.
katana = sash mounting and length of blade measured by arm length of user (for iato drawing).
nihonto = longer curved blades (nihonto) often saddle mounted (tachi), describes the blade itself.
handachi = longer curved blade (nihonto) sash mounted (but often cut down to katana size for iato drawing).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Ships, Vehicles, Equipment, and Tech All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0