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ZzaphodD
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Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | And for those who want a faster ROF, there is that hair trigger modfication in one of the supplements that allows for 2 shots per trigger pull. A modification that when combined with the orginal version of this rule gives me nightmares. Jango firing off 30 shots!?!!
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Well, jury-rigging a weapon for two shots per trigger pull wont give you more than 6 shots before something happens statistically, certainly not 30. Regarding that hair trigger modification I cant really speak of it as I dont know how its designed. Given its existence I does seem like you could pull off two fast shots with a single action, or is just the actual trigger pull an entire action on its own?
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | And for those who want a faster ROF, there is that hair trigger modfication in one of the supplements that allows for 2 shots per trigger pull. A modification that when combined with the orginal version of this rule gives me nightmares. Jango firing off 30 shots!?!!
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Well, jury-rigging a weapon for two shots per trigger pull wont give you more than 6 shots before something happens statistically, certainly not 30. |
Your math isn't quite right. Statistically you could get 30 shots, but the odds are against you (0.42%). And you only have a 33% chance of getting off 6 shots. Rule-wise the problem with it was the increased chance of a mishap, which, according to the old mishap rules are enough incentive never to modify anything. The same holds true with the wild die, though.
Between the wild die and the lack of railings, I'm surprised more people don't fall down reactor shafts.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | [
Regarding that hair trigger modification I cant really speak of it as I dont know how its designed. Given its existence I does seem like you could pull off two fast shots with a single action, or is just the actual trigger pull an entire action on its own? |
As written, assuming I remember correctly, it doubled the number of attacks you got per action. Yeah the mishap chance was insane,but then all the mishap rules were. If run as written, no PC could get through an adventure with his modified equipment having a mishap. What I do is just run mishaps in conjunction with a 1 on the wild die.
But to be fair, most RPG "fumble" rules would prevent any weapon from being approved by most militaries, or insurance companies. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | And for those who want a faster ROF, there is that hair trigger modfication in one of the supplements that allows for 2 shots per trigger pull. A modification that when combined with the orginal version of this rule gives me nightmares. Jango firing off 30 shots!?!!
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Well, jury-rigging a weapon for two shots per trigger pull wont give you more than 6 shots before something happens statistically, certainly not 30. |
Your math isn't quite right. Statistically you could get 30 shots, but the odds are against you (0.42%). And you only have a 33% chance of getting off 6 shots. Rule-wise the problem with it was the increased chance of a mishap, which, according to the old mishap rules are enough incentive never to modify anything. The same holds true with the wild die, though.
Between the wild die and the lack of railings, I'm surprised more people don't fall down reactor shafts.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | [
Regarding that hair trigger modification I cant really speak of it as I dont know how its designed. Given its existence I does seem like you could pull off two fast shots with a single action, or is just the actual trigger pull an entire action on its own? |
As written, assuming I remember correctly, it doubled the number of attacks you got per action. Yeah the mishap chance was insane,but then all the mishap rules were. If run as written, no PC could get through an adventure with his modified equipment having a mishap. What I do is just run mishaps in conjunction with a 1 on the wild die.
But to be fair, most RPG "fumble" rules would prevent any weapon from being approved by most militaries, or insurance companies. |
Ah, I wasnt sure if you were talking about jury-rigging as you called it 'modification'. Well, as you point out yourself, given how jury rigging works its existence isnt really a case against the RoF rules presented in this thread. And my math is right enought. I said you wouldnt get more than 6 shots before 'something' statistically happened, not that it exploded (and yes, Im aware that having 1/6 chance of a mishap and firing 6 shots doesnt give you a 100% chance, but you should count on it happening).
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I don't think that you and I are too far offin our views here. At least not for "average" combat. |
Yay! 
| atgxtg wrote: | | And, yeah, speed is pretty much inored in the RAW. I for one, don't buy into the idea that it is easier to hit a low flying X-Wing zipping by at Mach 1 than a running Wookiee. But that is another topic. |
Like everything, it depends. But low flying and fast over terrain that is not perfectly flat seems like the GM could add an ad hoc modifier to increase the difficulty. Players who can't ever see that sometimes that would be reasonable should probably watch out for rocks falling on their heads out of a clear sky. 
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | ...I said you wouldnt get more than 6 shots before 'something' statistically happened, not that it exploded (and yes, Im aware that having 1/6 chance of a mishap and firing 6 shots doesnt give you a 100% chance, but you should count on it happening). |
Yep, 6 chances x 1/6 per chance = an expected value of 1, but as you said, that is the probable outcome. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Fallon Kell and I have been bouncing back and forth. Not the topic. In fact, Fallon and I should probably take out debate out of the forum and into PM land and let the topic do a little "bouncing".
It's not a bad topic, and not necessarily a bad idea. Just that two people have got a bit overzealous,. and kind of killed the debate on the topic. Sorry folks. 
We'll at least no one got rude or resorted to name calling. 
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And this I can get behind completely! I think atgxtg and I have both demonstrated that we're well informed and intelligent people who stick to their guns and hold tenaciously to their beliefs unless someone can give them a good reason to change them. These are all good things, and for the record, I don't begrudge atgxtg for them. I also doubt he harbors any ill intent for me. Most importantly, we both seem to be the kind of people who don't ignore something they think isn't right and let others deal with it.
Now I know that I, personally, am quite capable letting that trait get away from me. So if I start making stuff less than fun for others, go ahead and PM me, or even just post a normal reply telling me to simmer down. (It's not gonna hurt my feelings.)
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | t;]...I said you wouldnt get more than 6 shots before 'something' statistically happened, not that it exploded (and yes, Im aware that having 1/6 chance of a mishap and firing 6 shots doesnt give you a 100% chance, but you should count on it happening). |
Yep, 6 chances x 1/6 per chance = an expected value of 1, but as you said, that is the probable outcome. |
Uh guys, the statsitical chance of a failure out of six shots is only 66.5%. THat is no close to 100%.
Remember, unlike the revolver in Russian Roulette, , each "shot" has an independent chance of failing. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | t;]...I said you wouldnt get more than 6 shots before 'something' statistically happened, not that it exploded (and yes, Im aware that having 1/6 chance of a mishap and firing 6 shots doesnt give you a 100% chance, but you should count on it happening). |
Yep, 6 chances x 1/6 per chance = an expected value of 1, but as you said, that is the probable outcome. |
Uh guys, the statsitical chance of a failure out of six shots is only 66.5%. THat is no close to 100%.
Remember, unlike the revolver in Russian Roulette, , each "shot" has an independent chance of failing. |
Correct. The chance that there is at least one failure is 66.5% that is the chance of 6 non mishaps in a row or (5/6) raised to the 6th power. But that does not change the expected value. In this case the expected value is the probability of an independent event (a mishap) multiplied by the number of events which is 1/6 x 6 = 1. Unlike probabilities, expected values can be greater than 1. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | [Correct. The chance that there is at least one failure is 66.5% that is the chance of 6 non mishaps in a row or (5/6) raised to the 6th power. But that does not change the expected value. In this case the expected value is the probability of an independent event (a mishap) multiplied by the number of events which is 1/6 x 6 = 1. Unlike probabilities, expected values can be greater than 1. |
I don't suppose I could get you guys to put some money down on the expected value against the probable value on a series of tests? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I don't suppose I could get you guys to put some money down on the expected value against the probable value on a series of tests? |
Yep.  I don't have time to make up rules now, but I can suggest a game later. |
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