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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | You dont gain anything from aiming more than 5 seconds. |
That's part of why I treat the duration of a round as flexible (as per the RAW). In my experience, you have more control when taking the time to aim a single shot as opposed to double-tapping or trying to squeeze off even more rounds, so the RAW for MAPs seems perfectly appropriate here.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | You dont gain anything from aiming more than 5 seconds. |
That's part of why I treat the duration of a round as flexible (as per the RAW). In my experience, you have more control when taking the time to aim a single shot as opposed to double-tapping or trying to squeeze off even more rounds, so the RAW for MAPs seems perfectly appropriate here. |
Maybe Im just a better shot then? Theres a middle ground between double tapping and shooting once every 5 seconds.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Maybe Im just a better shot then? Theres a middle ground between double tapping and shooting once every 5 seconds. |
I think that's it exactly. I don't shoot nearly as often as I like, and I'm horribly out of practice. It's very likely that (in D6 terms) you are several D above me in your Firearms skill, so firing multiple accurate shots in a given time period would be easier for you than it would be for me.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Correct. BUT it seems bren and C seem to think they can dodge a blaster shot THEN parry other blaster shots that make it past the dodge, which is NOT how the RAW works. |
Speaking for myself, I am less interested in the RAW than I am in realistic. If a Jedi declares a Dodge at the beginning of the round, in general making himself a more difficult target to hit as opposed to dodging a specific attack, I see no problem with him then being able to use his lightsaber to parry attacks that do actually make it through. MAPs should provide sufficient penalty fr the character's divided attention. |
But by that same logic, shouldn't someone be able to dodge the same shot twice??
Since for you to know your dodge failed, means you are already getting hit!
| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | What your claiming is that those rules are in your favor for dodging blaster THEN parrying it, when they are not. |
What page in the rule book tells you that??
| Quote: | | ... BUT it seems bren and C seem to think they can dodge a blaster shot THEN parry other blaster shots that make it past the dodge, which is NOT how the RAW works. |
And where in the RAW does it say that you cannot both dodge and use lightsaber parry in the same round???
garhkal, you seem utterly convinced your point of view is supported by the rules then please provide a quote and page reference. If, as you keep saying the RAW prohibits this, it should be pretty easy for you to open up your copy of the rules and find at least one reference. |
Hows about this.
Using Reaction Skills
Dexterity covers several "reaction skills," which are used
to avoid or block attacks. When your character is attacked
and you roll a "reaction skill," the attacker's difficulty number
is now whatever you roll.
Page 38.
Roll. Singular.
When using a reaction skill, the character makes the
skill roll. (Don't forget to add penalties for multiple
actions.) The roll is the attacker's new difficulty number.
(This difficulty number is in effect for all attacks of that type
made against the character for the rest of the round.)
Page 90. Again singular use of roll.
| Quote: | | I haven't been paying close attention to most of this discussion, so I wanted to make sure you weren't throwing an additional MAP on top of the parry roll to identify which shots he needed to parry. If the Jedi already has LC up, and only has to face the -1D MAP for the dodge and the parry (not counting penalties for multiple shots), then I don't see a problem. Based on some of my past discussions with G, I'm going to hazard a guess that his main objection has more to do with it unbalancing things in favor of the Jedi. |
You forget the -2d he has for maintaining LS combat up as well.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | But by that same logic, shouldn't someone be able to dodge the same shot twice??
Since for you to know your dodge failed, means you are already getting hit! |
Well you can allow that if you want. I think you should apply the additonal -1D for MAP for the second dodge, which means that the character is rolling one less die for the new dodge roll than they did for the dodge roll that failed. And now all further attacks would use the new dodge roll, even if it is worse than the original dodge roll. Seems like a lot of trouble for little advantage to me, but if it makes you happy go ahead and use it.
| Quote: | | Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | What your claiming is that those rules are in your favor for dodging blaster THEN parrying it, when they are not. |
What page in the rule book tells you that??
| Quote: | | ... BUT it seems bren and C seem to think they can dodge a blaster shot THEN parry other blaster shots that make it past the dodge, which is NOT how the RAW works. |
And where in the RAW does it say that you cannot both dodge and use lightsaber parry in the same round???
garhkal, you seem utterly convinced your point of view is supported by the rules then please provide a quote and page reference. If, as you keep saying the RAW prohibits this, it should be pretty easy for you to open up your copy of the rules and find at least one reference. |
Hows about this.
Using Reaction Skills
Dexterity covers several "reaction skills," which are used
to avoid or block attacks. When your character is attacked
and you roll a "reaction skill," the attacker's difficulty number
is now whatever you roll.
Page 38.
Roll. Singular.
When using a reaction skill, the character makes the
skill roll. (Don't forget to add penalties for multiple
actions.) The roll is the attacker's new difficulty number.
(This difficulty number is in effect for all attacks of that type
made against the character for the rest of the round.)
Page 90. Again singular use of roll. |
But this doesn't say you can't both dodge and use lightsaber parry. Sure the verb is singular. At that point the rules are describing making a single roll so of course a singlur verb is used. But as I pointed out the rules clearly and specifically allow multiple reaction rolls including lightsaber parry. If you want to claim that the rules prohibit doing both a dodge and a lightsaber combat roll in the same round you really need to find something more specific that the use of the singular case to describe the result of a singular skill roll. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | But by that same logic, shouldn't someone be able to dodge the same shot twice??
Since for you to know your dodge failed, means you are already getting hit! |
Well you can allow that if you want. I think you should apply the additonal -1D for MAP for the second dodge, which means that the character is rolling one less die for the new dodge roll than they did for the dodge roll that failed. And now all further attacks would use the new dodge roll, even if it is worse than the original dodge roll. Seems like a lot of trouble for little advantage to me, but if it makes you happy go ahead and use it. |
I agree. From my perspective, this rule is a realistic one when one factors in the Force's precognitive guidance. The Jedi is not dodging twice; he is moving his body in a way that makes him a more difficult target (as his Dodge roll is applied against all attacks directed at him that round) and then using Lightsaber Combat to deflect any attacks that do get through. That's two separate reaction skills used one time each in a round, not one skill used twice or more. To me, this is in keeping with what I see in the SWU, where Jedi seemed to mix both dodging and parrying into their lightsaber combat technique.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Rerun941
Commander
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 459
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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I think the only caveat I can recall is where it says that the Dodge roll applies to ALL ranged attacks for that round. So, you're either dodging all of the blaster fire OR you're parrying the blaster fire... but not both.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Rerun941 wrote: | | I think the only caveat I can recall is where it says that the Dodge roll applies to ALL ranged attacks for that round. So, you're either dodging all of the blaster fire OR you're parrying the blaster fire... but not both. |
True according to the RAW the reaction parry or dodge applies to all attacks of that type so there would seldom be any advantage to rolling both a dodge and a lightsaber parry since one roll applies to all incoming attacks and rolling twice would incur a MAP. Potentially one could use a second reaction roll if the first roll was very low, e.g. Kal the Jedi with Dodge 8D, Lightsaber 6D, Control 2D, Sense 2D. Assume LS combat is already up. Kal declares one action, opponents act first shooting blasters. Kal uses dodge as his first action (swapping out what he planned on doing). He rolls 8D-2D=6D (for LS combat) getting a poor roll of 12=2,1,1,2,1,2. He then decides to roll lightsaber parry as a reaction (thereby incurring another -1D penalty) so 6D+2D-3D=5D; substituting this result for his first roll. Kal rolls 17=3,4,3,4,3; which makes him harder to hit. This would seem more the exception rather than the rule.
Perhaps a more likely scenario where both rolls would occur would be when attackers use different ranged weapons i.e. grenades and blasters or stockli spray sticks and blasters. In this case, it might make sense to dodge the grenade or the spray and parry the blasters. It seems a peculiar, perhaps even a perverse example of literal interpretation of the language to say that a Jedi would be unable to dodge the one type of attack and parry the other in the same round; while allowing anyone to both dodge a blaster and parry a vibroblade.
Note the examples above are an interpretation of the RAW rather than an example of the house rule that ZzaphodD proposed. His house rule limits the power of Jedi lightsaber blaster parry since it does not allow the same roll to apply to all blaster shots in a round. Rather a large enough number of shots will guarantee one or more hits. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps its just how we interpret the rules.. I see it as saying you get either a dodge OR parry against ranged attacks. You see it as sayng you can do one, then the other.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps its just how we interpret the rules.. I see it as saying you get either a dodge OR parry against ranged attacks. You see it as sayng you can do one, then the other. |
Not exactly. We are less far apart than you think. You see it as saying either or. I see it as saying you can do multiple reaction rolls of different types and not really specifying whether you can do both a dodge and a lightsaber blaster parry. But I have no reason to think you can't do both.
I also think you are getting too concerned about the perceived unfairness of two defense rolls. The fact is that unless you implement a house rule making it harder to parry many shots rather than a few (like what ZzaphodD proposed) 80% of the time it would not be to the character's advantage to make both a dodge and a parry roll. Since in the RAW the reaction parry counts against all attacks, no matter how many there are, the character would be better off making whichever reaction roll gave him the most dice to roll and counting that against all shots. I am just willing to let the player try the two rolls in the 20% of the times when it might work to their advantage.
ZzaphodD's house rule makes the dodge first and parry what is left make sense some of the time, because it reduces the number of incoming shots that count against the lightsaber parry. Sometimes that will help the Jedi, but sometimes losing the extra D for the dodge will hurt the Jedi. It really just depends on how high the skills are, how many shots are incoming, etc. The player makes a choice based on what they think is going to happen in the round. Then dice get rolled and they find out if they chose correctly, or not.  |
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Galen_Paratus
Cadet
Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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This does seem to work very well (it seems I should have actually read the first post and not just skimmed before skipping to the end...)
Reaction skills diminishing returns: The TN of a rolled reaction skill now diminishes by 2 for each successive attack against the character beyond the first. Example: Sindo has a dodge skill of 8D and has five ranged attacks coming his way. He decides to dodge and rolls a 26. The TN’s for each shot will be 26, 24, 22, 20, and the final shot at an 18.
Note that diminishing returns do not affect the bonus to defense provided by cover. If your cover is 3D and I roll a 12, that number is added to the range TN and becomes the minimum to hit you regardless of how many attacks come your way…unless the cover is destroyed (which it may, eventually.)
This forces everyone, including NPC's, to be more tactically sound and take cover, and also prevents the "Jedi Battle Tank" from coming into reality.
Even if someone rolls a 60 for a defense, 11 shots later that defense is only a 40, combine that with coordinated actions, and you can cut someone down pretty quick if they don't have any cover.
Last edited by Galen_Paratus on Mon May 23, 2011 7:09 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Galen_Paratus wrote: | | This is the simplest method I have come up with for dealing with... |
This sounds similar to a house rule ZzaphodD had suggested for lightsabers parrying blasters. It seems very workable. |
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