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TIEs in Atmosphere
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vong
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You would have to look at the aerodynamics of a ship.

i would argue that if a tie is -2D, and advanced would be -1D+2 (slightly bent, but still sporting twin sails). this would only apply to left/right manoeuvres, they are good at up down forward.

the defender would be back at -2D (bent outwards, catches more wind) i think, but in all directions (yay trigon!)

this being said, they have higher base manoeuvrability, so it will be "more manoeuvrable"

just have to look at the shape and see how hard it is to move, and in which direction. if you want a hands on test - bring some sort of model to the pool, as the higher resistance of the water will simulate high speed manoeuvres.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rerun941 wrote:
Bren wrote:
atgxtg wrote:
I'd suggest kicking up the difficulties by 1 level, rather than reducing the maneuverability. It keeps ships from becoming ION bait. just because it is in an atmosphere.
So movement rolls would be one level harder, but TIE dodges keep the +2D maneuver? ...That could work.


You could even scale it so that Thin atmospheres have no increased difficulty. Standard atmo = 1 difficulty level higher and Thick atmo = 2 difficulty increases.



Yes, exactly. I did something like that already when my group was flying through a gas giant. But to do it fairly, the difficulty increases should be in stages. That is the difficulty increases along with the atmoopsheric pressure, so it would be a bigger problem at lower altitudes.

But...I wouldn&t go too wild with this. The flipside of a higher pressure is that the control surfaces work better, so some vehicles could be more maneuverable. The Hull Code could factor in here too. A mure rugged craft could probably withstand more buffeting.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So the X-wing rolls 15 to hit the TIE must roll 20 to dodge or it gets hit?

Seems fair enough.

Perhaps you can take risks and ignore the added difficulty but for every level of difficulty you ignore your ship must soak 2D damage.


That is correct.
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Knowing what I do about aerodynamics, I would say starfighters are almost exclusively more maneuverable in atmosphere than vacuum because they would generate deflection lift that would cause them to move where they're pointing more easily. TIEs wouldn't get a big bonus out of this because their pitch maneuvers wouldn't change their cross section across the angle of attack much, but any yaw maneuvers would have two huge rudders helping them out... That said, I can see how game mechanics would benefit from a simple subtraction.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, but ii would NOT consider a tie fighter aerodynamic.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
True, but ii would NOT consider a tie fighter aerodynamic.


Very true. Few SW fighters truly are. I've seen a lot of explanations over the years, but the one that made the most sense to me is that starfighters in atmosphere use a combination of navigation shielding (which even TIEs have, per the RAW) and repulsorlifts to visually simulate the effects of a lifting aerodynamic body in atmosphere. The only reason they even have wings is to serve as a mounting point for "outrigger" repulsorlifts to assist in maneuverability.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
The only reason they even have wings is...
'cause they look better with 'em than without. 8)
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vanir
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certain features of starships aren't expressed in their specifications but in the description or knowledge of their construction.

For example, starships with hangars don't mention this in specifications but it is in their description notes and relates to overall cargo capacity of the basic design blueprints. For example a small cruiser with 2500 tons of blueprinted cargo capacity might have 1500 tons of actual cargo capacity and a modest hangar with standard facilities for 24 small craft.

TIE fighters don't have repulsorlift engines. They're designed for use outside of atmospheres. They're not manoeuvrable in atmosphere, simple (despite a base manoeuvre of 2D this is due to directional ion venting as opposed to S-Foils).
A YT has repulsorlift engines fitted, they retain any manoeuvrability ratings in atmosphere (but base is zero).

A stock YT can hover in atmosphere entirely out of proportion to its speed, it can decelerate smoothly. A TIE will plummet. If you want a TIE of any kind to hover you point it straight upwards so the ion vents point against the pull of gravity. Otherwise you use speed, zoom and energy management to function in atmosphere.

My guiding rule is simple, repulsors means you function in atmosphere just like you do in space, no repulsors means you don't, it's all energy and thrust with no manoeuvrability. None.

All snubfighters have repulsorlift engines.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
crmcneill wrote:
The only reason they even have wings is...
'cause they look better with 'em than without. 8)


It's their fuel supply. Back in the old school days roughly around 1983 these were described in scale models as "electrostatic ion engines using large panels to absorb fuel radiation"

TIE of course stands for Twin Ion Engine and really means they use dual-plane directional vents for the ion exhaust, these are what is used to provide both speed and manoeuvrability in space.
In atmosphere their directional capabilities is largely muted by atmospheric resistance, and there are no repulsorlift motors to compensate with gravitational suspension like other starships.

They were described as a deep space point defence system for Imperial Star Destroyers and bases. They're more a starfighter screening system than traditional starfighters per se. A picket and patrol facility where space superiority is already assured.

Planetary defence networks would traditionally use other craft, like the Z-95, X-Wing or an Imperial Defence Platform with starfighter scale turbolasers and point defence cannon.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
All snubfighters have repulsorlift engines.


Don't you mean, barring many ties (bomber, interceptor, fighter) the rest have repulsors.
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vanir
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very Happy I'm being very ad hoc, but my discernment is at least two distinct types of starfighter as per mentioned in the movies and various sourcebooks: the Interceptor and the Snubnose Fighter.
Interceptors are good for point defence on cruisers and the like, they're stripped down and small, designed for combat in space and not much else. Their compact size allows them to be packed uniformly in the hull of a modest sized capital ship, which is just perfect. Where you can fit maybe 4-6 snubfighters for area you can hang 12 TIE or similar interceptors on racks, it makes good use of cargo capacity.

Snubnose fighters I think first appeared in planetary defence forces and were initially designed to function with equal abandon inside and outside of atmospheres. The Z-95 has great atmospheric performance, really exceptional, but is more conservative in space and the lack of hyperdrives definitely suggests this is a planetary security design.

So our blanket rule works along these lines. There are other tiny interceptors (there's one in the DE sourcebook). And we frequently design new starships for our gaming, again based along these lines.

It's just our house rules though, it's no authority on the SW universe.
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