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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Blue Glowie wrote: | This is only touching on the demoralizing aspect. It seems like there's also a corruption aspect to it too.
It would cool if a result of 16+, or something, taunted the target into gaining a DSP by attacking with anger/fear/aggression. |
Agreed. I would say 15+ would be -3d stats, AND must attack in manner that is agressive (gains a dsp).
| Quote: | | That's not a bad idea but I liked the idea that calling on the Dark Side made it easier for a moment but harder in the long run because all the penalties are back and now you have that additional Dark Side Point that offers you bonus dice for giving in but adds another penalty if you try to resist. |
That could work. Say each DSP you have acqured gives 1 round of penalty ignoring.. so at the biggest level (-4d) you would have to acru 4 dsps that give you 4 rounds of ignoring the penalties...
| Quote: | | Also, this wouldn't necessarily be a Sith-only ability, even though the Sith would be the only one to call it Dun Moch. The Wookieepedia description clearly states that Jedi often used an inverse Dun Moch technique to attempt to persuade Dark Siders to return to the light. |
So how would it work on a jedi side... returning a darksider to the light?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | Also, this wouldn't necessarily be a Sith-only ability, even though the Sith would be the only one to call it Dun Moch. The Wookieepedia description clearly states that Jedi often used an inverse Dun Moch technique to attempt to persuade Dark Siders to return to the light. |
So how would it work on a jedi side... returning a darksider to the light? |
I'm not sure, and that's kind of my point. While I like the basic concept of what Esoomian is proposing, it is patently ridiculous to assume that a Jedi could use this technique to injure a Sith back to the Light Side. It needs to be bigger than just damage inflicted in combat.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Hopefully the third time is a charm. I have failed at least twice to get my fracking computer to finish and post this reply.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I think the canon supports the idea of this being Force augmented. |
Yay! We all three (you, me, Esoomian) agree there is an aspect of the force. 
| Quote: | | Most uses of Dun Moch involve things the Jedi sensing his opponent's emotions through the Force and using that insight to taunt his opponent. |
I think we also agree on this since LS Combat inherently uses Sense as well as control. Yay again! 
| Quote: | | It still needs to reflect the fact that a taunt is only as good as the eloquence of the taunter, and that should be represented by one of the character's non-Force skills. |
I'm not fully convinced. When I think of Palpatine using what I assume is Dun Moch on Luke and earlier Anakin, I don't find his taunts eloquent or convincing. "Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!" - that's supposed to persuade Luke. Seems better suited to make him pause and reflect. Which he does. To me Dun Moch in the films comes across more as an attempt to compell rather than to persuade. More like Affect Mind. Which has a Sense component.
| Quote: | | Also, this wouldn't necessarily be a Sith-only ability, even though the Sith would be the only one to call it Dun Moch. The Wookieepedia description clearly states that Jedi often used an inverse Dun Moch technique to attempt to persuade Dark Siders to return to the light. |
Affect Mind would cover this.
But on reflection I would like Dun Moch to be somehow different than just Affect Mind despite the way it sounds to me in the films. (Which may just be space opera with sometimes clunky dialog combined with non-Oscar winning acting.) So I won't use Affect Mind, though I think it would cover what we see (both successes and failures of the skill).
It could be a combination of Sense with another skill as crmcneill suggests. Possibly Intimidation (that would fit Darth Maul or Mace Windu) or Persuasion (that might fit Palpatine, Dooku, or even Obi Wan's quips and jokes) or maybe even Con, afterall no reason the insights have to all be true. But this likely should then become a new skill and for a number of the reasons that Esoomian mentions I am not excited about a new skill.
But since Sense is essential (note the imbedded pun  ) to uncovering the "opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses" If I use the LS combat then I would base the "damage" vs. Willpower on the Sense power. This actually has a second interesting side effect, since now a attack oriented Sith like Darth Maul with better Control than Sense may be safer striking for damage while a sneaky Sith like Dooku with a good Sense gets more affect by using Don Moch first. This also aligns with a Jedi diplomat type using LS Combat Form VI: Niman to use their possibly higher Sense against their opponent. It has a bit of a rock-paper-scissors feel which I like here.
And if one wants to include a non force skill component like Persuade or Intimidate one could make that a prerequisite for learning Don Moch or its Jedi taunt/quip equivalent or base the damage on the average of the practicioners Sense+Intimidate or Sense+Persuade.
Now I have either satisfied or disatisfied all equally.  |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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As long as we're talking about solutions that make everyone equally unhappy you could make Dun Moch an advanced skill (it doesn't matter what Stat you put it under as advanced skills don't use the stat for a baseline) and then have it be augmented by Lightsaber Combat.
That way the practitioner activates Lightsaber Combat and then uses Dun Moch (A) + the bonuses for Lightsaber combat and does damage as described in my earlier posts.
As an advanced skill it's plausible Dun Moch can now have elements of tactics/persuade/con and actual attack and defence. It also makes it difficult to do well (which it would be if you needed to advance two skills like Persuade and Lightsaber) and makes it somewhat distinct for Lightsaber Forms.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | As long as we're talking about solutions that make everyone equally unhappy you could make Dun Moch an advanced skill ... |
Hey you did me one better since Dun Moch as an advanced skill makes me unhappy.
But seriously, an advanced skill might work. But I think CR wants nearly all lightsaber combats to potentially include Dun Moch and I'm not sure an advanced skill would do that. Although I guess the bad guys in the movies are all experienced enough to have acquired advanced skills. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | Most uses of Dun Moch involve things the Jedi sensing his opponent's emotions through the Force and using that insight to taunt his opponent. |
I think we also agree on this since LS Combat inherently uses Sense as well as control. Yay again! |
The main issue I have here is that, although Dun Moch is often used in conjunction with lightsaber combat, it is not the same thing. One is enhancing the adept's Dexterity in combat, while the other is enhancing either a Knowledge or Perception skill (depending on the situation).
| Quote: | | Quote: | | It still needs to reflect the fact that a taunt is only as good as the eloquence of the taunter, and that should be represented by one of the character's non-Force skills. |
I'm not fully convinced. When I think of Palpatine using what I assume is Dun Moch on Luke and earlier Anakin, I don't find his taunts eloquent or convincing. "Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!" - that's supposed to persuade Luke. Seems better suited to make him pause and reflect. Which he does. To me Dun Moch in the films comes across more as an attempt to compell rather than to persuade. More like Affect Mind. Which has a Sense component. |
In this situation, I would refer to your statement below about campy Space Opera dialogue. IMO, you get a better feel for Dun Moch in the prequel novels, which show what is going on in the character's heads during the course of the fight, showing what the true effect is of the seemingly simple words being spoken. I am still convinced, however, that the eloquence of the taunting Sith affects the "bite" of the taunt:
Darth Billy-Bob (with 2D Knowledge, and 2D+1 Intimidation): "Yur afraid, aintcha, ya big dummy. Yuk, yuk, yuk."
Darth Tyranous: "Master Kenobi, you disappoint me. Yoda holds you in such high esteem. Surely you can do better."
| Quote: | | It could be a combination of Sense with another skill as crmcneill suggests. Possibly Intimidation (that would fit Darth Maul or Mace Windu) or Persuasion (that might fit Palpatine, Dooku, or even Obi Wan's quips and jokes) or maybe even Con, afterall no reason the insights have to all be true. But this likely should then become a new skill and for a number of the reasons that Esoomian mentions I am not excited about a new skill. |
Perhaps it could be all three, with the skill used dependent on the effect you are going for.
What I latched onto when I read the article on Dun Moch was that it attacked the Jedi's concentration, making it more difficult for him to use the Force. I think a more accurate result would be to use Esoomian's original concept, but have the damage be primarily psychological, and have the damage applied as penalties to the Jedi's Force skills, so that it gets harder and harder for him to use the Force based on the effectiveness of Dun Moch. His options would be to give in and spend a DSP as per Esoomian's suggestion, or he could spend a FP in heroic fashion to break the Sith's hold over him.
| Quote: | | But since Sense is essential (note the imbedded pun ) to uncovering the "opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses" If I use the LS combat then I would base the "damage" vs. Willpower on the Sense power. This actually has a second interesting side effect, since now a attack oriented Sith like Darth Maul with better Control than Sense may be safer striking for damage while a sneaky Sith like Dooku with a good Sense gets more affect by using Don Moch first. This also aligns with a Jedi diplomat type using LS Combat Form VI: Niman to use their possibly higher Sense against their opponent. It has a bit of a rock-paper-scissors feel which I like here. |
I like it. i've been working on a way to combine the seven forms with the Dueling Blades rules, and have been having trouble with Niman. A concrete version of inverse Dun Moch would certainly apply.
| Quote: | | And if one wants to include a non force skill component like Persuade or Intimidate one could make that a prerequisite for learning Don Moch or its Jedi taunt/quip equivalent or base the damage on the average of the practicioners Sense+Intimidate or Sense+Persuade. |
Or make it a combination result (i.e. the adept rolls Sense to determine his opponent's weakness, then, depending on how well he rolled, he receives a bonus to Intimidate / Persuasion that is then rolled against his opponent's Willpower).
I still think that it should be separate from Lightsaber Combat, though. After all, a Sith could conceivably use Dun Moch via comlink against opponents who are trapped in a labyrinth, or even against a non-FS opponent in a political setting. It could certainly be used in concert with Lightsaber Combat, but it is very obviously two distinct abilities.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree, I think the examples listed of taunting someone in a maze or assulting someone in a political setting are not examples of Dun Moch. I see them as a varient of psychological warfare and Dun Moch to be a way of intergrating psycological warfare with Lightsaber Combat not psychological warefare in and of itself.
I do like Bren's idea of making the sense componant the part that does the damage though.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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The problem there is that you are making the Sith use different skills (Sense for Dun Moch and Intimidation / Persuasion for everything else) for what is essentially the same act (psychological warfare) all based on whether or not the practitioner is holding a lightsaber. Being armed with a lightsaber and skilled in its use may provide advantages to certain kinds of psychological warfare, but it is a far larger topic than simply beating your opponent down by cutting him up a little with your saber blade.
Dun Moch as originally described was purely the verbal side of combat. Even though Darth Maul was obviously taunting the Jedi in E1, because he never said a word, he was considered to be eschewing Sith tradition by not using Dun Moch (reference is the Star Wars Insider magazine article originally describing the seven forms in detail). As described in Wookieepedia, Dun Moch is now an umbrella term covering pretty much all forms of psychological warfare by a Sith, as well as the inverse Dun Moch practiced by the Jedi. Your version (demoralization by inflicting purely physical damage) is actually the antithesis of Dun Moch as originally described, and a single facet of a much larger picture of Dun Moch as it currently exists. While I like your concept as a starting point, I really think you are either missing some crucial points or purposely ignoring them in favor of your rule.
EDIT:
Here is the exact quote from Wookieepedia:
| Wookieepedia wrote: | | Dun Möch commonly involved spoken taunts, jeers, and jests that exposed the opponent's hidden, inner weaknesses and/or doubts, which had the end result of eroding the opponent's will. Such a thing could be quite deadly, especially against Jedi, since concentration was of vital importance when using the Force. As such, Dun Möch embodied using the Force as a form of psychological warfare. |
This is the summary from the opening of the article. At no point does it mention inflicting physical damage, even though attacking an opponent's will is specifically mentioned.
I am not saying that inflicting damage wouldn't have an effect on Dun Moch, but I must emphasize that its attacks are intended to be psychological, not physical.
Excerpts from the Wookieepedia article:
Darth Bane: "He exhibited patience by drawing out the battle and demoralized his opponent by withholding striking a final blow and capitalizing on his mistakes. "
Desann: "used Dun Möch by faking the death of Jan Ors and taunting Kyle Katarn about his powerlessness, tricking the enraged Katarn to reveal the location of the Valley of the Jedi."
Darth Sidious: "arguably the greatest practitioner, would plan events that would take years, if not decades, to come to fruition. The Clone Wars could be considered an extreme usage of Dun Möch by Sidious, in order to distract the Jedi Order to allow him to wipe them all out quickly with Order 66." "also used this form against Yoda in his duel against the Grand Master, both by taunting Yoda verbally and displaying his mastery of telekinesis in an 'unnecessarily' flashy fashion."
Darth Vader: "used it facing Luke Skywalker in their duel on Bespin's Cloud City to great effect. Vader applied the technique again during their duel on the second Death Star, however this usage proved counter-productive, as Skywalker was spurred into a rage instead of being demoralized by the taunting."
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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It was interesting brainstorming some ideas. But now I think the Dun Moch conversation has reached a point of diminished returns.
I think Esoomian and crmcneill each have some good ideas they can now develop in their own unique fashions. Clearly neither is going to change the other's opinion on the proper Dun Moch and I have yet to make up my mind which approach is more appealing. Most likely, I will go with whichever plays fast and fun with an acceptable (to me) style and tone. |
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