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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | I let the character roll the complementary skill at the same difficulty that the task would normally be. If successful the character can add the number of dice he has in the complementary skill to the die roll for the second skill. |
I use complementary skills, but with a smaller bonus, typically between 1/2 the complementary skill dice or as low as +1D or a reduction in the difficulty one level. |
I was thinking something more along the lines of using a table like the Enhance Attribute one, where the maximum "synergy" dice that a character can get applied to a complementary skill would be 3D (and he'd have to roll relatively high just to get that). The flip side would be that if he failed the Knowledge roll, he would get a penalty of up to -3D instead. The base difficulty would be defined by the base difficulty of the Knowledge skill itself (as in how obscure the information is).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I was thinking something more along the lines of using a table like the Enhance Attribute one... |
That could work, though since we don't use enhance attribute, the table wouldn't be well known. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Something like this:
Character roll vs. Difficulty = Dice Modifier
-16 or lower = -3D
-15 to -6 = -2D
-5 to -1 = -1D
0 to +5 = 0D
+6 to +10 = +1D
+11 to +20 = +2D
+21 and up = +3D
Basically, say the character rolls for Alien Species when performing First Aid on a Wookiee. Base Difficulty is Difficult (for information that is normally something only a professional would know). The character has a relatively high Knowledge, with 6D in Alien Species, so he knows something about Wookiee anatomy. He rolls his 6D and gets a 26, so he beats the difficulty by 6 points. As a result, he recalls specific information about Wookie anatomy and physiology that is pertinent to his First Aid roll, and he receives a +1D bonus to his First Aid skill.
IMO, just one of these rolls would count as a free action, but any more would begin acrue MAPs as normal. However, if the character has time, he can still use the Preparing rolls and make multiple Knowledge rolls in the rounds leading up to the attempt without incurring MAPs (so long as he performs a single action per round).[/list]
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | You said, "Or maybe I could make the character roll his own Willpower to resist giving in to baser emotions rather than depending on the player's OOC knowledge and perspective to decide what the character does or doesn't do." So if my character has a low Willpower, he fails the roll and relies on his baser emotions and OOC knowledge. While the high Willpower character makes the roll and therefore cannot use the OOC knowledge. How is that a penalty for having a low Willpower? |
What I said was that the character shouldn't use the player's OOC knowledge and perspective to decide whether or not he gives in to his baser emotions. Rather, that he should use a mechanic based on his own ability to control his emotions, as defined by his skills. The idea is that a roll would reduce the influence of OOC knowledge and perspective on the character's roll result (or eliminate it entirely), not decide whether or not he got to use it. A character with low Willpower would be more likely to lose control in a stressful situation than would a character with high Willpower. In either case, making it dependent on a dice roll would give a result based on the character's skill level, not the character's player's OOC knowledge / perspective.
| Quote: | Then I am curious why you want to encourage them to spend more attribute and skill dice on KNO skills. For one off characters and players, my response would really be - who cares if they want to run relatively ignorant characters?
Alternately, why not just let them take the skills they want and make the character roll on a KNO skill (which they don't have) to use any out of game knowledge? That seems like a relatively simple stick. |
I'm a big fan of rules and details (in case you hadn't noticed). For me, it's not enough to simply say, "Your character learns this and this because he rolled high on his Alien Species skill." In a game where the details are defined by the dice roll, then IMO, special knowledge should be accompanied by a dice bonus to practical application of that knowledge. It's fine and dandy that you know that that avian over there with the puffed up tailfeather plume is trying to intimidate you, but how does that knowledge actually apply in-game? In a game where the random results are defined by a roll of the dice, then advantageous knowledge that is applicable to a roll of the dice should be defined by information from the GM and a dice bonus.
IME, it's easier to ride herd on a bunch of powergamers by saying "You failed your Law Enforcement roll, so you're rolling Con at -2D" than it is to say "I don't care how many times you've been arrested; your character hasn't, so he doesn't know what you do." Even then, they try to sneak it in by having their character do the right thing by "random chance."
| Quote: | | I must still be missing your objective. I don't see how making tasks easier if they have KNO skills is a stick to discourage acting on OOC knowledge. Why not just tell them. No Bill your character doesn't know about Wookiee life debts, Coynite honor codes, where the vulnerable areas are on a Twilek, etc? |
That's what I'm trying to represent; what if Bill's character does know? How do we know if he does or not? We roll his skill dice and find out. If he screws up, he gets it wrong and takes a penalty to his practical skill roll. If he gets it right, he gets a bonus. As I said above, what's the point of the GM telling me that I know about the Coynite honor code if it doesn't have a positive effect on my practical skills, like Bargain, Command, Con, or Persuasion
| Quote: | | We seem to be in agreement, adding a preferential modifier or alternatively lowering the difficulty is what I do, e.g. difficulty is moderate if you know about target's customs and language, difficult if you only know one of the two, very difficult if you know neither. I tend to prefer this mechanic because it is mentally easier for me to assume human vs. human as the base and then adjust the difficulty upwards from there. But mathematically it is six of one half a dozen of the other. The actual numbers are situational for me, so an actual table would be ungainly and kind of pointless. |
What can I say? I'm a detail oriented kinda guy.
| Quote: | | Still don't get why you want to get players to spend more of their very limited starting skill and attribute dice on KNO though. I guess I may just have to take that as a prediliction of yours that I don't understand. But making KNO attribute and skillls more attractive is really a separate issue from discouraging players from acting on OOC knowledge. You might have greater success to treat the two issues separately rather than combining them. I find discussing the difference between OOC and in character and explaining what behavior is and is not acceptable is helpful for some players. Probably more helpful than a rules patch that gives them a bonus for having good KNO skills. |
I guess my main goal is something that balances Knowledge out so that characters don't automatically dismiss it in favor of all the other attributes.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | You said, "Or maybe I could make the character roll his own Willpower to resist giving in to baser emotions rather than depending on the player's OOC knowledge and perspective to decide what the character does or doesn't do."... |
The idea is that a roll would reduce the influence of OOC knowledge and perspective on the character's roll result (or eliminate it entirely), not decide whether or not he got to use it.
I am still not seeing how OOC knowledge relates to a willpower roll. I don't see how a willpower roll has anything to do with a player's OOC knowledge. If the player knows small unit tactics and the character doesn't, then a tactics roll may be appropriate. A willpower roll is irrelevant to this situation. Is it possible you are mixing two different concepts in your prior quote?
I'm a big fan of rules and details...For me, it's not enough to simply say, "Your character learns this and this because he rolled high on his Alien Species skill." In a game where the details are defined by the dice roll...
Here is a fundamental point of disagreement. Not everything is a dice roll. Nor need it be. Knowing about Coynite honor codes may tell you not to call the Coynite a liar unless you are trying to provoke an immediate and deadly confrontation. No dice roll required.
If everything is a dice roll, you don't really need players. There are computer dice rollers that can replace them.
IME, it's easier to ride herd on a bunch of powergamers by saying "You failed your Law Enforcement roll, so you're rolling Con at -2D" than it is to say "I don't care how many times you've been arrested; your character hasn't, so he doesn't know what you do." Even then, they try to sneak it in by having their character do the right thing by "random chance."
Penalties are fine. But if they make the roll now they have a bonus and you have enhanced the power gamers power even more.
| Quote: | | I must still be missing your objective. |
That's what I'm trying to represent; what if Bill's character does know? How do we know if he does or not? We roll his skill dice and find out...
The rules already do that. No changes required.
...As I said above, what's the point of the GM telling me that I know about the Coynite honor code if it doesn't have a positive effect on my practical skills, like Bargain, Command, Con, or Persuasion
Well it might just let you adjust your behavior to keep you from getting your head cut off. 
I guess my main goal is something that balances Knowledge out so that characters don't automatically dismiss it in favor of all the other attributes. |
Why?
Is this a problem with all characters or just some of them? Do you have players who are unhappy with how the current rules effect their character? Are you on some quest to make all attributes equal for all characters? If that is the goal, you could just start all characters out with 3D everything.
Obviously you are free to modify the rules, but it seems you are tinkering just to tinker or to make D6 look like some other system you are more comfortable or familiar with. Or possibly you just have a desire to spell things out in tables rather than adjust difficulty levels situationally and on the fly. Esthetically I find a plethora of tables the mark of inelegant and cumbersome game design. Some designers obviously are either incapable of an elegant design or have a different esthetic (or both).
At the end of the day, it seems to me like you have a solution that is in search of a problem. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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While i understand where C is coming from, and agree in part, that some of the know skills DO need more fluffing, i also agree not everyone may find this to their liking.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I am still not seeing how OOC knowledge relates to a willpower roll. I don't see how a willpower roll has anything to do with a player's OOC knowledge. If the player knows small unit tactics and the character doesn't, then a tactics roll may be appropriate. A willpower roll is irrelevant to this situation. Is it possible you are mixing two different concepts in your prior quote? |
It ties in with the other discussion we're having about Willpower and loss of emotional control. I see it something along the lines of a character with low Knowledge (and consequently low Willpower) is drunk and angry because his football team just lost the big game, so he goes nuts and starts a riot. OOC Knowledge would be the player saying to himself, "Well, that's stupid. I don't want him to get arrested, so I'll just have him go pass out in a corner or something."
Honestly, if you want to just let this part of the debate slide, I think we've covered it more than enough on the other thread.
| Quote: | | Here is a fundamental point of disagreement. Not everything is a dice roll. Nor need it be. Knowing about Coynite honor codes may tell you not to call the Coynite a liar unless you are trying to provoke an immediate and deadly confrontation. No dice roll required. |
I will concede the point with the stipulation that there are some situations where a dice roll would be useful. A Cultures or Alien Species roll could conceivably give a character bonuses to various Perception skills and increase their effectiveness when dealing with a Coynite.
| Quote: | | If everything is a dice roll, you don't really need players. There are computer dice rollers that can replace them. |
I am not looking to replace the players. I am simply looking for a game mechanic that will make Knowledge a bit more interesting and a bit more useful.
| Quote: | | At the end of the day, it seems to me like you have a solution that is in search of a problem. |
And perhaps there is some truth to that. IIRC, the original idea grew out of a suggestion for a question of Garhkal's and just snowballed.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Quote: | | At the end of the day, it seems to me like you have a solution that is in search of a problem. |
And perhaps there is some truth to that. IIRC, the original idea grew out of a suggestion for a question of Garhkal's and just snowballed. |
Ah ha! So it's garhkal's fault. That explains everything. 
Sounds like we are done with this topic. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Bren, the post idea that you were looking for in in this thread, second page, second post from the top.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:47 am Post subject: |
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I take full responsibility.. Now i shall have to go blow up planet Y to make ammends to my Sith overlord.
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Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren, the post idea that you were looking for in in this thread, second page, second post from the top. |
Thanks. I've edited my post to give atgxtg proper attribution credit. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I take full responsibility.. Now i shall have to go blow up planet Y to make ammends to my Sith overlord. |
Ummm...you forgot to say, "MWAA HAA HA HAA!"  |
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